I don't appear to have the typical female experience I'd be interested in what some of you have to say

[hathorinareddress69]

Not a thread about a thread but on another thread I realised that I don't seem to have had the typical female experience, and I just wondered what you thought (since LRD suggested this was not a scary place)

I don't seem to have had the experiences that some of the feminists have - I don't feel the need to share with females, I never had a man leer or wolf whistle or try to look up my skirt.

My best friend is a man and I can (and do) discuss anything with him and he does with me.

Am I that abnormal?

Hi, I don't think you are unusual OP, I feel the same, I don't see the need to discuss female things with other women, I've not been leered at by random men or assaulted in any way. I don't think that makes me less of a woman or feminist- I think the idea that it does is a bit weird really ...

"Small sexual assaults"? They all seemed quite serious matters to me - I'm pleased never to have come across men who behave this way.

I don't talk about periods etc to friends because I wouldn't talk about indigestion or bowel movements or dandruff either - too boring and self centred!

There is obviously no single female experience.

There are plenty of things though which women experience and men don't, in enough numbers that they prefer to talk about with others who have had that experience or similar ones. And vice versa with men obviously. And then there are things that women experience in much greater numbers, or in a different way, that they still prefer to discuss with others who have had similar experiences. And again vice versa.

Otherwise MN wouldn't exist, for a start. Women can talk about bad experiences with men, and get a generally empathetic response, even from women who have not had those experiences. I don't know what sort of response a woman would get if she talked about those things on a male dominated website, TBH.

That's kind of how I feel - I did come across (as I said on the transgendered thread I think maybe it was the pfft one) one situation where something I considered beyond the pale was said to me and I discussed it fairly robustly.

Maybe sympathy but less empathy somehow.

Yes, SQ, that's sort of it.

As an aside, someone has started a most interesting thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a1451339-Like-the-name-says-give-me-my-counter-argument#31213631here if any of you felt like commenting.

Damn. Link fail.

here

Already on that one

I'm sure the OP will be most grateful

I cannot be doing with this namechanging shit it's doing my head in already this is why I could never be a sockpuppet seriously who could be arsed?

I haven't seen any other threads, so I'm not aware of the background. However, I can venture a response to some of the points and questions in the thread.

Perhaps it's a question of how much the "political" must become "personal" for an individual to identify with the issue in question.

Some feminists (and activists against other forms of injustice) are motivated by their personal experience of discrimination. Others may feel they have never really been affected by the issue themselves, but they can empathise with others who have and are sufficiently concerned to speak up about it.

Yet others may be somewhere in between, and I would suggest that one's position can change as you go through life, as you have different experiences, as you have more life experience and engage with more people and as you learn. Examples of this might include women who become aware of sex discrimination when they become pregnant or become mothers and those who recognise the seriousness of sexual assault or domestic abuse when someone close to them is affected.

Interesting points from madwoman above. Sometimes, at least in my experience, if I find I'm struggling to get my head around another person's experience of marginalisation, discrimination, etc., I try and unpick it - and look at what from my own experience might be "blocking" my understanding of the situation. Is there a crucial bit of information that I'm missing and where can I get it? Am I concerned that advocating on behalf of that issue will have a negative impact on another, so am resisting somewhat? Is there something within my own experience that is "blocking" me from really getting to grips with the issue - perhaps my own hopes and fears?

Kind of on that last note, it can be a huge challenge to look at the abuse and disadvantage that women face just for being women (or Black people or Lesbian and gay people, or disabled people, etc. face for just being who THEY are,) and not in some way feel vulnerable. Their experiences remind us often painfully of the sorts of things that could happen to us as well (or even that may be already happening, but we aren't yet fully aware of it!)

I'm just a bit concerned that I've been blithely sauntering along in my own life, doing my own thing, living my life, and missing something.

I don't feel the need for a crowd of female friends to share intimate things with - I am not for one second minimising or diminishing the feelings of those who have that or wish it or need it, I just don't.

I suppose also the feeling has been sparked off by the discussion around rights and "hierarchies of rights" for want of a better way to put it - when there is a conflict how does it get resolved?

I don't believe that women automatically because they are women have a right to anything.

And I also believe that the law of this country should be obeyed and if you don't like it, lobby to change it (within the law) - and I also know (thanks to SQ or SAF I can't remember which ) that on MN that is considered a short cut for jog on and don't discuss that here - which isn't how I mean it. I genuinely mean, lobby, protest, write to your MPs, form protest groups, whatever you feel you need to do within the law to raise the issue.

I don't think there is a 'typical' female experience.

But I do think women have rights that are specifically to do with them being female. How would you square saying 'I don't believe that women automatically because they are women have a right to anything' with a woman's right (in this country) to abort a pregnancy she carries?

Maybe part of the difficulty is that many women's rights are easiest to understand in the negative - women have the right not to be raped by their husbands; women have the right not to be dismissed from their jobs after marriage, women have the right not to continue a pregnancy, etc etc.

I don't think this changes the fact these are rights, and they are all either physically or socially or legally defined as rights women are accorded because they are women.

Yes but most of those rights are negative rights.

Yes of course women have rights that are to do with being female.

I suppose I am just musing.

I will approach this query with the assumption that's written in the spirit of genuine enquiry.

To anyone who has not experienced sexual assault ('small' or otherwise) then yes, I would say that you are lucky, and also that I am genuinely pleased for you). Unfortunately, the small assaults thread linked further up shows that a great deal of women have been through this.

If, however, you think it's because you are in some way cleverer, smarter or have made better choices than women who have experienced those things, I'd say that was being offensive - because it implies that women are partially responsible for being sexually assaulted; whereas the fault lies with the man who has done it.

Also, if you think women who have been upset by these things are over-reacting/over-sensitive, I'd say that is also minimising and offensive.

In terms of not discussing personal stuff, I'd say that is not much to do with being a 'typical' woman, or being a feminist, and more to do with the kind of person you are.

No I don't for one second think that it's anything to do with me that I haven't been assaulted that I'm better than anyone who has - please don't think that.

I don't for one second think anyone who has been is over-sensitive.

I was just commenting that the female experiences referred to on the other thread were not my personal experience.

I did not and would not judge anyone or think I was better than anyone else (and if you've been on threads I've been on in the last few days I think I've demonstrated that but if I haven't I'm happy to be corrected)

There's a good reason they're negative, though, isn't there? It's because the default for a very long time has been that women have very few rights, and such rights as they have are an exception to that default. Because women are defined by what they are not, ie., men.

No-one has yet needed to legislated in order to protect men from having to risk their mental, physical and emotional health by carrying a baby to term - because men are not able to do this in the first place. One cannot help suspecting that, if men could get pregnant, it would never have occurred to anyone to suggest they did not have rights over their own bodies. But women, of course, by default, have historically not had rights over their own bodies - hence the need to make a law saying 'no, actually, you don't have to do this, you can have an abortion'.

I understand Hathor - I didn't assume you did think those things, I was just just setting out my own thoughts on the issue.

I haven't seen any of your other threads so I can't comment on those.

Abortion is not legal in all jurisdictions within the UK and I find it staggering that it isn't. And staggering that more people are not aware of that fact.

LRD I agree with your last para and I reckon that's a good example. I think a lot of people don't like the idea of women having complete control over their own fertility (I'm thinking of Nadine Dorries et al).

You're absolutely right there Hathor, it's not legal in NI.

I'd say that if you've lived to be an adult without experiencing any sexism, that's a win for feminism and I'm really pleased :)

If only everyone's lives were like that - hopefully some day they will be.

A while back ALL women experienced institutionalised sexism whether in being denied the vote or the right to own property or choose their sexual partners etc etc. Now I'd say THE MAJORITY of women still experience it. But clearly not all. One day hopefully, none will.

And I have lots of male friends as well, but still find spending time with women more of a - sounds wanky I know - healing experience. Not sure why. It's not all sitting in circles and talking about Life. It's the helpless laughter together as well.

Maybe I need to seek out different female friends then (and I mean that in the nicest possible way and I would hate anyone to take offence)

Sorry - I did know about the legality of abortion (and I know the situation in the US and particularly Arizona is absurd, too). Apologies if I offended anyone by generalizing.

flippinada - yes, I agree. But it is odd how fertility and rights are socially constructed.

There are minorities that believe a man mustn't 'waste' his semen, and in that way fail to give it every chance to form a baby.

But aside from this tiny example, in most cultures and countries, it's women's bodies that come into conflict with the 'rights' of what will become a child. There are even views that a woman who could become pregnant should not enjoy autonomy over her body in case she harms a not-yet-extant, hypothetical foetus.

I can't see any clearer example of women's rights being defined in the negative. The starting position seems to be - women don't have rights. Women are simply not-men. Sometimes, we will accord women some rights. Sometimes, we will accept they qualify as just like men under the law, and extend men's rights to them. But treat women as a group in their own right? That's very rare.

I shall have to go off and have a think about the reproductive rights discussion.

Hi, Hathor - Why did you think someone reading would be offended at you saying (well i assume this is what you were saying) that your female friends dont induce helpless laughter in you?

Genuine question.