Equality at home - Can this really be achieved?

[marga73]

There is an issue I've been wanting to discuss for a long time. It's the issue of equality inside the house.

Even though women now work and are able to gain respectable positions in the workplace, and we can say that some level of equality has been attained, it seems to me that once they have children, women lose more than men in terms of work opportunities and financial independence. And all because the house and the children still seem to be a "woman's job".

It's all great to find women who are happy being the SAHP, but don't these women feel sometimes that being 100% financially dependent on their husbands is frustrating? Doesn't this situation make them feel trapped and powerless? Is it OK for women to sacrifice their independence for the sake of their children and the house keeping?

I work part-time, and have two small children, and still feel trapped sometimes. I'm grateful in many ways that my husband earns enough so we don't have to worry about paying for mortgage, food, childcare etc - and I contribute to this too - but I feel it's far beyond from the ideal I had when I was young and it really annoys me. If I'm honest, it makes me very angry.

I would like a society where men and women work part time, share domestic tasks 50/50, and look after their children part time, and therefore pay for everything on equal terms. Is this too much to ask in the fierce capitalist society we live today? Am I naive to think that should be the case?

wordfactory: it is not the woman per se...it is the person without the pension who ends up without the pension. It jsut so happens that many of these are women who have not worked and chosen to look after their children instead. If they want a pension, they are free to get one and pay into it in any way they can.

Vulnerability. hmmm its interesting that you compare being dead to being vulnerable. I would prefer to be vulnerable and alive than dead personally. Out of interest do you know how many vulnerable adults live on the streets? Do you know what percentage of those are men? Id say a very very large majority.

value on birth?what are you seeking a push present
its really woolly to think society put a value on birth,and it starts to dally into women are goddess for giving birth

it is a remarkable and ardous event,. and one that the majority of women safely undertake. i dont expect reward or approbation for being parent or a mother.like everyone else we want to be left to get on with what we think is right for us and our family. i want a light touch from state and from others

tomwm - as men & women are less defined by gender, the statistics are narrowing. on the news this week it said boys of 12 y.o. are likely to live as long/out live 12 y.o. girls.

you see i dont think people are bashing each other,its a bitty patronising to reduce it to that summation.the internet will give you a range of views.some will be concordant with your pov,some not. but certainly id not simply reduce it to bashing

and i dont want my working week dictated to be 40 per week max, and for many professional jobs it simply isnt achievable. with home email,iphone,ipad work is able to be undertaken at a home and in own time. i do try to manage my work life balance and am not workaholic bit no a 40hr week, well no i exceed that regularly every week. and sometimes by choice,to support junior staff,to maintain safety and continuity,or just to get something done

i want lighter not heavier touch from the state

i wish men and women were less defined by gender. Alas places like this are obsessed by it.

tom if you think that it just happens to be women who lack proper pension provision and it has nothing to do with sexism in society, then we really are on a different page.

tom why don't you ask what you're even doing on this thread.
Really ask yourself that question.

If you cherish women and their magical birthing abilities so much why are you seeking to argue with a group of women discussing how to make society better for other women.

As my DH always says there are men who outright hate women and are at least honest about it. Then there are those who profess to adore them, but still do everything in their power to argue against any form of empowerment.
Then there are those who accept they might not understand and attempt to listen.

Which are you?

My point was that those without a pension wont have a pension when they are old....thats just fact, whether they are male or female. I dont have a pension so when im old i wont have one. I also wont have access to my wifes NHS pension. I choose not to have a pension because i personally think its an unhealthy financial institution.

im not saying there shouldn't be provision for those in vulnerable positions. i said the opposite in fact.

'People who depend on anyone else financially (or indeed emotionally) are vulnerable when that person is no longer around. This is a fact of life. I agree that this should be guarded against as best as possible.'

you are being very sarcastic which i dont think is neccesary so im not going to answer you question/challenge but leave you to make up your own mind on what sort of mine i am.

on mumsnet and feminism topic id expect discussion of gender and female experience
in same way that on dadnet id expect discussion of gender and male experience
in same way that on gransnet id expect discussion of gender and grandparent experience

name is a give away really

mumsnet - 'for parents, by parents'.
Feminism - hhmmm i think i would like to write in a forum about general justice and fairness. Id certainly be more interested in this than one about Masculanism...but thats not even a word that exists!

tom I asked you to ask yourself the question.

I'm not really mithered. Once a man isn't someone prepared to listen to women discussing sexism, it matter to me not one bit if they are openly women hating or dressing it up as reverence. Same result.

tom there are plenty forums like that about.

You have deliberately tracked down a thread about feminism, where women are discussing ways forward in equality to argue with us...

What does it say about a man who does that?

yes mn globally
but youre posting in feminism topic (which naturally youre more than welcome to post in)
its same as if you posted in antenatal due in 2012 there would be pregnant women discussing due dates and scans

mumsnet is not a feminist board,its a general parenting board.yes
and the topic title us usually a give away as to likely emphasis

i can by all means post in dadsnet and i would expect a particular emphasis or interest therein

tom what outcome do you want from going spending your time doing this?

PMSL at man objecting to there being too much feminism in a feminist discussion in a feminist board which is dominated by women discussing equality.

I think I'll pop over to camping and complain that there is too much talk of tents and not enough of seahorses or unicorns or something.

Come now sisters...enough of this equality lark. Let us recognise our special magicallness and be happy with our lives.

No more talk of feminism. Anyone know anyhting about keeping chickens?

fem topics the more the merrier in my opinion.male and female.its not a womens space, its not a "safe" space. it is a discursive open forum discussing fwr

lively riposte-yes please! makes it more interesting and fresh
pile in and contribute by all means, but im bemused at posting on a topic with a particular emphasis and then bemoaning the emphasis

think you'll find the word is masculinity.

if you don't like talk about gender politics i strongly recommend not hanging out on feminism forums.

it wouldn't be expensive really ef - tons of jobs for nursery nurses, childcarers, etc who'll be paying tax (and not claiming benefits), more mothers paying into the tax pot (and not claiming benefits), much reduced tax credit bill - no working tax credit for two parent families, minimal for low earning single parent families might still be needed, potentially less problems in school if all/majority of kids have been in childcare from an early age and more hours to provide for a child's needs as part of the wraparound childcare would include reading, learning activities that good parents do at home but others don't bother with or aren't able to do, etc etc.

Unfortunately those that provide wrap around care are paid a similar amount as a TA and no one could live on it. Summer holiday activities are run by students as a holiday job it volunteers for free.

Those who work in nursery care are young and living at home, or married women, with working husbands- in general.

Porto - I usually conclude these discussions thinking "Belgium sound like a nice place"

Yes I think the policies you describe to enable more people to work less/more flexibly as well as a cultural shift to assume that dads are just as likely to do childcare/dentists/drs/sickdays/ schoolrun as mums are steps in the right direction.

I wonder whether part of what makes these systems work in France, Belgium etc is because families tend to live more centrally. The more physically close school, work and home are, the easier it to chop and change between two parents, rather than specialise into opposite roles.

... I do wonder if equality demands a different way of living in cities from the suburban sprawl model.

Beachcomber - I don't disagree with any of what you say. but it seems to be a feminism laundry list of everything, almost as a way to avoid tackling the knotty issue of how to fix the nuclear family.

I think we all agree that we want greater fairness for all women, but it is not straightforward to say what is fair in this area.

E.g. Some say a SAH partner/dependent ought to be able to transfer their tax free allowance against household income.Others say if you don't earn money you don't get a tax free allowance.

• one option makes it more worthwhile for lower earning parents to work, the other makes it more worthwhile to stay at home. Both could say their option is fairer. 'fair' doesn't help to decide.

I guess (as is evident from this thread) that feminism is never going to have a firm answer on this one, because there is no obvious villain. It is frustrating (...at least to me..)

I suppose the answer is to build sets of policies that work out ok for lots of different choices, and that create bridges so that that first maternity leave doesn't lock women into the position of being the lower earner in a partnership for ever.

Those that run/school clubs before and after school are women doing it for pin money. We have already been told that it isn't suitable employment so why is it not OK to have TAs but it is OK to have the wrap around care? In my area it is often the same women.

There is a mix at my school with regards to out of school care from what I can see. Some of them are referred to as "educatrices" - they are qualified to a level. They provide support roles in the school, supervise the homework clubs, cover lunch time and Wednesday afternoons too. One also covers games/swimming. They supervise the holiday clubs, which employ Uni students as well. The core staff must work (nearly) a full time week.

Beachcomber - I don't disagree with any of what you say. but it seems to be a feminism laundry list of everything, almost as a way to avoid tackling the knotty issue of how to fix the nuclear family.

Perhaps Himalaya - that is probably because I'm not sure the nuclear family can be fixed. Improved, yes. Made less of a compromise for women, perhaps. Fixed, I don't think so.

We need to examine the nuclear family and the gender binary within it (wifework). And something really important; we need to change laws on how men, as a higher status group within society, are allowed to treat women
Beachcomber

These are two very separate issues - the way I see it (and most people here seem to conclude a similar thing) the family is a team, regardless of who does what work, so long as there's equal effort going on on both sides. The issue of sexual exploitation is completely separate, but you are right, it is unforgivable in this day and age that men can buy women. It makes it possible to dehumanise us. It is the last piece of power they are clinging onto, almost to prove some kind of point. But that is completely different to the issue of equality in the home.

TAs earn a pittance because of the way schools are run. The NUT is the most powerful union in the country but they don't look out for TAs, just teachers. The NUT works hard to reinforce the power of the Teacher in schools. Teachers would not give up their salary budget to hand it to the TAs. It's the old class thing rearing its ugly head again.