Equality at home - Can this really be achieved?

[marga73]

There is an issue I've been wanting to discuss for a long time. It's the issue of equality inside the house.

Even though women now work and are able to gain respectable positions in the workplace, and we can say that some level of equality has been attained, it seems to me that once they have children, women lose more than men in terms of work opportunities and financial independence. And all because the house and the children still seem to be a "woman's job".

It's all great to find women who are happy being the SAHP, but don't these women feel sometimes that being 100% financially dependent on their husbands is frustrating? Doesn't this situation make them feel trapped and powerless? Is it OK for women to sacrifice their independence for the sake of their children and the house keeping?

I work part-time, and have two small children, and still feel trapped sometimes. I'm grateful in many ways that my husband earns enough so we don't have to worry about paying for mortgage, food, childcare etc - and I contribute to this too - but I feel it's far beyond from the ideal I had when I was young and it really annoys me. If I'm honest, it makes me very angry.

I would like a society where men and women work part time, share domestic tasks 50/50, and look after their children part time, and therefore pay for everything on equal terms. Is this too much to ask in the fierce capitalist society we live today? Am I naive to think that should be the case?

I can' see why you choose to live with a man if you don't have equality. My contribution was vital, it was the part I enjoyed best.

I am fortunate enough to be well-paid. Or maybe I've been cussed enough to avoid pin-money jobs. Therefore I am in the privileged position of being able to pay for my children to attend academic schools. There are no statemented children. The class sizes are small. The work stretches them and fulfills them. I am quite angry that the state cannot or will not do the same.

Bully for you! And what happens to all the DCs who have special needs that your academic school won't take? Just leave them without one to one help?

If you want to carry on doing something that the state should provide, then I admire you. But I do think that you are setting the cause of gender equality behind, somewhat.

Who cares for disabled children? Women

Who cares for elderly relatives? Women

Who, when they venture into the workplace, either give up or work part time? Overwhelmingly women

This is all relevant stuff. Because each time we undertake the caring roles, we do so only because we are able to be financially supported by men. I could give up work tomorrow and live off DH and volunteer as a TA to give my life some meaning. I could do that. But it would be a bit of a cop-out.

The state does it's best, it takes SN, it has DCs with appalling backgrounds, DC s haven't enough to eat, have addict parents etc and I am very thankful that people actually want to work with them for peanuts-rather than say 'I'm OK - I pay school fees'and I'm angry that the state can't stretch every DC!!

I take it that you would be willing to double you taxes to pay for the wages so that men do it too? Or leave our elderly to rot because no one will do it? The only money is our money in tax- it doesn't go far enough as it is.

I would NOT be willing to double my taxes, no. My marginal tax rate is 50%, going down to 45% admittedly. But still, doubling my taxes would be equivalent to 100% tax rate. I believe that there has been severe economic mismanagement, coupled with some unnecessary wars, which have landed us in a situation where education (which is vital) is being neglected and underfunded.

Personally I would rather see better paid, better trained one-to-one teachers for kids with SN. The quality of TAs is hugely variable. Some are great, others are not all that literate themselves (teaching reading rescue). I have been told by the school "we have two reading schemes, your son would probably prefer the other one, but this one is easier for the TA' I don't see why this is a minimum wage job at all it ought to be a skilled proffesion, like a tutor.

Actually I do know why it is minimum wage - because it is a 'mum job' and still stuck in the mindset that you don't need to pay women real wages.

million, I have no idea whether you meant your comment to be quite so pathetic but I can only refer you to Blackcurrants excellent post. As she and Xenia says, no one ever asks dh (also in another senior role in the City) whether his children see enough of him (they do but his work is transactional so less flexible than mine) or whether his children are clingy because he works. I wasn't sure whether to be horrified that I was seeing such a post on a feminist thread or to laugh. Think my conclusion is a mixture of both. But to be sure to answer the question, no my dcs aren't clingy and they see the same amount of me as I saw of my mother (whom I love very much before I get another sly dig) when I was the same age and mum was working.

My circle of friends is wide and includes both sahm and wohm as well as the planned and unfortunate childless. It all seems one great big juggling act whatever the path, and there are sacrifices whatever the path. To me feminism is about the right and ability to choose a path and be happy with it while being supported by your partner (because you and your contribution, whatever that might be, is valued) and not have to suffer the superior judgy twatty comments from other women (from both sides of the coin).

If threads become the politics of the right and left in feminism discussions people get off the main issues and just argue. Obnviously they can if they want but I think we are bound by common agreement - that we want men and women equal under the law across the planet and fairness at home. None of us disagree with that.

Sometimes by turning arond the genders in a paragraph you can see the sexism of it. My sister and I did it as teenagers when we read Enid Bltyon books out to each other reversing the sexes.

As Hopefully say it is women who end up with the dross jobs at home and at work more often than not and that is why every woman who stops work in a sense damages others. Leaving that aside I suppose the left or a different kindo f feminist to mine might try to argue that loads of childcare and cleaning is a personla nirvana and as that is such a lovely thing to spend your time doing it doesn't matter if men end up having to run BP on £1m a year if women adore washing socks. I don't of course subscribe to that view. It is the whether you're beter as a happy pig or unhappy philospher point of view. Plenty of women in Saudi have personal happiness, the 80% of women in Somalia who are circumcised may say they are happy etc etc but that does not mean that they should not have the scales lifted from their eyes and given equality.

we're going on a side track here but you can't get better trained one-to-one teachers for the kids with sn sadly. there are already tons of teachers teaching who don't have the sheer personality and character to teach today's kids in secondary schools. teaching is actually something you need to be good at and a lot of it is force of personality and.... hard to define but believe me there are lots in there who don't have it. and they're not going to by more training to be honest. we have more children to educate than we have adults with affinity for teaching to do the job.

teaching assistants ime were a nightmare. at primary maybe it's fine - a) the kids are less challenging and so is the academic work, b) mummies with dh's paying who want a nice job on the side pick nice little primary schools NOT rough and ready secondary schools.

i had teaching assistants and lsa's in my classroom who i would have been better off without them being in there - sitting chewing gum and chatting and not seemingly able to focus on a lesson themselves let alone assist the child they're supposed to be working with in doing so. the only very good ones i had were off to do their pgce or gtp within a year of starting because they needed to earn more money for this thing they'd found they were capable of and the pgce grant and a student loan at that time was worth more than a ta's salary.

the state is definitely not providing what is needed at secondary school and ta's (and they don't tend to be assistants to the teacher at secondary but learning support assistants who sit with one kid in the lesson and if you're very lucky will help out others around them a bit) are not even sticking plasters but token gestures for the statemented kids.

the salaries are such that they assume reliance on a partners income or benefits. as a lone parent i could never do it - it is not a sustainable salary. state schools need to be able to provide for a wide range of needs and face the structural changes that need to be made for that to occur in a meaningful way as bunging everyone in together in classes of 30+ regardless of ability, behaviour, mental health problems, etc is not working.

I don't mind at all that Hopefully recovering pays to send her DCs to a school with small classes and bright children. It would be an utter disgrace if they couldn't hand pick each DC and manage to stretch them all. It does annoy me no end that she is angry that the state can' t do the same! Of course it could,with the same circumstances. However special schools have closed. State schools have DC who are on the autistic spectrum, they have Down's Syndrome DCs,the deaf, all sorts of SN. They have those with ADHD, those with chaotic home lives, those with traumatic early lives, traveller's DCs, who come in at 9yrs for the first time unable to read or write, they have those with English as a second language, they have the average and below average. (I sometimes think that people don't understand the word average -if they all go up there is a new average and there always have to be the below average) I could go on with my list - selective mutes etc. The schools do a wonderful job but teachers are not magicians - you try stretching each one in a class of 30 alone!
TAs are vital. We pay the wages-everyone of us on this thread I would imagine. Hopefully won't pay more yet thinks it underfunded and miss managed-where is the money coming from? HImalaya wants trained teachers with these DCs yet schools are struggling with the budgets they do have.
I agree that men should do it too, they do in a very few cases but that is up to individual couples to work out. The TAs that I know love their job, it fits in with their life and I can't see what is wrong with it, society wouldn't work if it wasn't for the givers and it was al 'me', 'me', 'me'. Luckily lots do it for free too.
Our elderly wouldn't t get cared for on a living wage. Again I would love them to be well paid but you and I are paying for them. Abolish it and people can't manage to work, they would be looking after aged parents. They also couldn't afford child care if it was a realistic price to reflect wages.

Sorry about extra lettersvetc-I still struggle to type on an iPad.

Unfortunately TAs reflect the area,swallowed a fly. Being in a very middle class area you get an excellent quality of TAs, secondary as well as primary.

we need more so called 'special schools' reopening. i'm guessing there are plenty of parents forced to send their children to mainstream school and watch it failing them who'd rather send them to a place with specialist staff and facilties either full time or part time.

schools need diverse 'units' within their grounds. some education can be mainstreamed and taught in mixed groups whilst for some of the time and curriculum students could be in specialised settings within school grounds. units with psychs, counsellors and behaviour specialists - i don't think people understand that we teach children who are already known as psychopaths, schizophrenic, bipolar etc. units for advanced literacy and numeracy support for those who have specific and non specific learning difficulties or have english as a second language or are children of travellers who haven't had a regular education. units for more able pupils to work to extension levels of education and to do gcse's as and when they are ready to do so rather than having to do them at 16 even if that means wasting three years cruising in mixed ability lessons. you need social workers, counsellors, nurses, even police officers attached to schools.

we need an education to match the needs of the time not semi literate adults being paid 9k a year to sit with a pupil in every lesson and supposedly help their educational success despite not having managed their own.

at primary school maybe exotic. secondary school not so much even in a nice area. there are very, very few 'naice' schools at secondary level.

Of course we do,swallowedafly, but where is the money to come from? I would love a job working with SN , challenging and interesting but I would expect the pay and there is no money in the pot. I agree that is mismanaged but even if it was excellently managed there isn't anywhere approaching enough.

My area has excellent comprehensive schools and dyslexic DS got the most fantastic support from TAs-mainly because they are the women despised on here because they want to put something back into society and do it for pin money and personal satisfaction and nice hours.

Special schools were closed as a cost cutting exercise.

it wouldn't have to take loads of extra money - just restructuring and using resources better (including staff).

i agree 'inclusion' as we see it was a pure cost cutting exercise. there is nothing inclusive about dumping everyone in the same place without the specialised help they need.

This discussion about how much skill is needed to be a SN TA, but how the economy would collapse if we actually paid women people who are good at doing this difficult and important job a fair rate rather than unskilled wages....

....it reminds me of the scene in Made in Dagenham where the Ford bosses are making much the same argument. How the world has moved on .

Fantastic thread - give me an hour or so to catch up with what's been covered so far and I may have something sensible to contribute.

So far, the only thought that occurs to me that whilst on paper I have a fairly equal division of tasks at home (both work FT, have a "bucket" of tasks each that we happen to be good at/enjoy, bicker over the ones that no-one enjoys but generally divide them pretty fairly), somehow its still not equal in reality. Somehow its still me who has to think, we need to do this, DD should be doing this - doing all the planning IFKWIM.

Anyway, the thread has become far more intelligent that my observation, will read it all.

hey tbom - it's called 'wifework' - that thinking, coordinating, taking responsibility for the mental load of what needs to be thought of and done.

You see, I feel guilty about complaining, because I don't have to do very much of the shitwork, and get largely to concentrate on things that I like. And I have a lot of help at home, so really shouldn't complain.

But I get so fekkin' irritated when he's on the sofa at night fiddling around with his camera and editing photos (his hobby) when I'm there mentally making lists of what to do.

I love making lists, but I hate having to make a list for someone else as well as me.

There's a book called Wifework isn't there - is it about this kind of thing? Feeling ashamed that my reading has dwindled off into the realms of crapdom. Note to self - must read more proper books that help me grow as a person.

wifework=souped up euphemism for doing domestic chores and bit of mental juggling
lol we all do that.
and we are not all wife's
and we dont all reckon housewife is a job

talk about socialsciencetastic explanation to sell a book and create a so called paradigm.blah blah