Equality at home - Can this really be achieved?

[marga73]

There is an issue I've been wanting to discuss for a long time. It's the issue of equality inside the house.

Even though women now work and are able to gain respectable positions in the workplace, and we can say that some level of equality has been attained, it seems to me that once they have children, women lose more than men in terms of work opportunities and financial independence. And all because the house and the children still seem to be a "woman's job".

It's all great to find women who are happy being the SAHP, but don't these women feel sometimes that being 100% financially dependent on their husbands is frustrating? Doesn't this situation make them feel trapped and powerless? Is it OK for women to sacrifice their independence for the sake of their children and the house keeping?

I work part-time, and have two small children, and still feel trapped sometimes. I'm grateful in many ways that my husband earns enough so we don't have to worry about paying for mortgage, food, childcare etc - and I contribute to this too - but I feel it's far beyond from the ideal I had when I was young and it really annoys me. If I'm honest, it makes me very angry.

I would like a society where men and women work part time, share domestic tasks 50/50, and look after their children part time, and therefore pay for everything on equal terms. Is this too much to ask in the fierce capitalist society we live today? Am I naive to think that should be the case?

Xenia looks down on child care workers.She didn't send her DC's to selective fee paying schools so they could do it as a career!

I think that we are at cross purposes- I am not arguing against normal people's way of working-just Xenia's extremes where a surgeon couldn't work because there were no cleaners.

I think there's plenty of projecting going on here, and reading things into xenia's postings which she actually hasn't said.

I think it's a mistaken assumption to think something has to give. It may appear that way to you as a SAHM just as it may appear to a WOHM that something might give to become a SAHM.

Both dh and I work full time and travel for work. We have done this full time for 5 years now. What makes a difference is excellent childcare and good understanding between dh and me.

She has said it! I am not projecting anthing.
I am with her on some things. Nursery nurse attracted me as a teenager but I wasn't expecting anything other than to earn my own money for life and it doesn't pay enough for that. I can safely say, she will no doubt correct me if wrong, that Xenia would be appalled if her DDs or DSs wanted to be a nursery nurse. The only possible excuse would be if they opened a whole chain of nurseries. I don't think I am projecting.

Of course those who cannot m anage work and children and are just housewives think it';s impossible to have two career successful couples. Those inadequates cannot imagine the competence of those of us who capable of such things. It's fine but of course there are many many competent women who earn a lot and are great parents. It's just not everyone can be like that. The average IQ of 100 etc.

I have never said I look down on anyone. That is contrary to my moral code. I cannot imagine how any clever woman wants to clean and childmind and not have a career however. That is nothing to do with looking down on anyone. Half the population has lowish IQ and is not much good at most things. That does not mean they are not worthy of being alive or are worse people. As said above all leaders, male or female, need their foot soldiers. Let's just ensure many many more women are in effect leading and earning a lot even if that means men playing second fiddle and polishing our shoes.

To be honest, I'd be disappointed if my daughters aimed low and I'm nowhere near Xenia's realm by a million miles.

Xenia calling women inadequate and of deficient IQ for making choices that are different to yours, isn't feminist.

It also shows a lack of analysis and critical thinking.

I'm glad that patriarchal capitalism has worked out very well for you as an individual. However I suspect that you have benefited from a certain degree of privilege in your life and, if that is the case, your politics are not entirely honest.

But perhaps I am wrong - perhaps you have pulled yourself up by your bootstraps, overcoming the sort of social and economic disadvantages that are part and parcel of the capitalist system you hold so dear. Perhaps you have come from a long line of exploited working class family or long term unemployed. Perhaps you have come from the sort of social background where grinding poverty, and the social problems that accompany it are part of your life experience. I doubt it though or you wouldn't be calling other women inadequates and offensively obsessing over IQ.

If I am wrong and you have not benefited from the unearned class privileged provided by the capitalist system, then I apologise.

yes and perhaps you paid for yourself all the way university and law school without any parental support or grants. i'm guessing not.

Beachcomber - I don't think that's what we are talking about here though. (at least I didn't think so)

What we are talking about are the millions of women who did benefit from a university education, and do live a privileged life and who chose (in Xenia's oponion) or are find themselves (in my opinion) in a position where they can step back from the career track and become classroom assistants/bake bread/volunteer etc... and yet still continue
to live the same life because their husband is able to earn a good wage by perpetuating the idea that the only way to be serious at work is to not have visible family responsibilities.

Women go to university just ad much as men, but put their education and ambitions aside far more than men.

Clever women have to clean whether they work or not and so do clever men, unless they don't mind other people invading their space. The cleaning is the same whether you work or not and those who don't work often have cleaners in the same way that those who work do so cleaning isn't an issue.
I don't 'mind children' -I am not a babysitter. I still can' t see why a career is important to everyone. I have a great CV with lots of interesting things - they just don't happen to bring in money. I have a high IQ.
There are many jobs that need a high IQ but they don't pay enough as a living wage. Nursery nurse is one-TA is another and we should be grateful that people do them because they are not the main breadwinner and it fits their lifestyle and they love it. We need highly intelligent people working with children as a first choice but sadly I wouldn't recommend it to a school leaver-it simply doesn't pay enough.

All I am saying HImalaya is that some women love putting it aside - some don't. Don't get forced into something you don't want. Sort it out before DCs.

exotic - 'some women love putting it aside'.

i want 'some people to love putting it aside'. do you?

foxinsocks I don't think anyone has made an assumption that two parents cannot work in full time highly demanding jobs.

Some of us have even tried it.

And of course it can be done, (pretty much anything can be done if you have the will) but personally that's not the way I'd want my family to roll.

exotic it's clear that you really don't value a fullfilling career, either for men or women.

But surely you can see that for some of us (many of us) it's extrememly important? We want to be about our families and our work (and possibly a host of other things too).

You make it sound like once a person has children then nothing else matters...but there are parents all around the world still saving people's lives, defending human rights, writing astonishing poetry, making award winning films, investigating corruption, making life changing inventions...does all that have to stop because they had a child?

Word I was just responding to someone who said that something has to give. Personally I don't think it does but each to their own .

Everyone and every family has their own feelings about what works for them and I am sure we are all different (would be boring if we were all the same!).

Women go to university just ad much as men, but put their education and ambitions aside far more than men.

Yes they do. But not because they are inadequates. It is because women bear children and they do it in patriarchal society.

Which is very very basic feminism. Xenia self-identifies as a feminist so she presumably is aware of this rather plain and obvious fact.

WidowWadman. Just a word of caution. Your children are in childcare 50 hours a week.I am hoping you "pop in", and other mothers "pop in", as there are ghastly incidents of nurseries that are not all they should be. Just because the staff are qualified does not guarantee that nothing untoward is happening.
Xenia.Xenia you are a lawyer and your life is mainly about winning. I have read many of your posts in other places.I even suspect that is why you had so many children so you could "win".Which you dont, but who cares.
And there have been many posts, some here, many elsewhere where you definitely use "look down" words.
As you have said before you are maybe on planet me.

I put women because I thought we were talking about women.
I know that careers are important to a lot of people. My whole point is that we are all different.
I had my DCs later so I had done a lot of what I wanted to do. I thought that I was only going to have one DC, as a widow, and it was hard to watch friends go on to have more. I was incredibly lucky to manage 2 more just before I was too old so I was going to enjoy every minute of it. I don't regret it.
People must do what suits them. I keep replying because I resent Xenia seeing me as a downtrodden drudge,who spends my day cleaning and is doled out housekeeping money in a sort of 1950's style and that I just 'mind' my DCs as if it isn't t stimulating both ways.
I agree with fox socks-how boring if we all thought the same-and the world wouldn't operate if we had to be 60+ before we could volunteer for anthing for free.

The ones who say something has to give and you cannot have it all are the inadquates who don't have the competence to make it work. We can feel sorry for them. We can understand their position but all this "giving" is always on the distaff side and it's a feminist issue to its core. It's not gender neutral.

I would be surprised if I use look down as a phrase as I believe all people are entitled to equal treatment under the law and at home. I think some women are very very silly in accepting sexism at home and shooting their earning capacity to pieces. It often means they are left high and dry and thus in a sense damage their chidlren later by the silly risk they take in putting all their eggs both financially and in terms of personal satisfaction in one box.

Women put their education more often aside than men do because they do not take the correct moral position of feminism, because they believe women are the second sex who serve men and their families, because they are very silly.

Winning in my view if being happy and healthy. More housewives are depressed than workers thus it behoves a woman to work as that is the route to happiness for herself and her family.

Women in our society who bear children are perfectly free to do as I do - take 2 weeks holiday work until you are in labour get back to work and then you don't suffer any different from a man particuarly if you are in a non sexist marriage where there are no assumptions that justb ecause you have a penis means you can work or not change nappies.

Xenia, dont forget your soul.You go to a Christian Catholic church?Jesus or whoever said something about first being last and last first?Dont trample on others, dont know if you do or not.What does your church say about men and women.

So Xenia, you don't look down on anyone, but you think half the population are 'inadequate' because they don't have a high IQ or high flying job? Yeah I can follow your logic

Sometimes being a SAHP is a choice, sometimes it is thrust upon us by circumstances. Some people may well stay at home because they have no marketable skills, but I would imagine that far more do so because they haven't had the opportunity to develop those skills, or have been led to believe they don't have them. That is far more concerning to me than just about anything else on this thread; that some women have been told all they are capable of is being a housewife, that 'wifework' is so easy that only useless 'inadequates' would lower themselves to do it, that raising children is lowly work and has no worth.

Those are feminist issues to me, not that someone chooses to stay at home because they want to spend the formative years with their children while someone else chooses to send theirs to nursery/have a nanny so they can pursue a high earning career.

Xenia it is patriarchal to the extreme to suggest that having a child is something one should aspire to do in a 2 week holiday so as not to inconvenience capitalism.

It is misogynistic to blame the silly women for being exploited by male dominated society.

Is isn't sisterly to denigrate the deals that other women make with patriarchy just because they happen to have made a different deal to you. And we all make some sort of deal - calling other women names and showing contempt for them is a sort of deal for example.

I'm not saying these things because I think that you will properly engage with them - I'm saying them simply to point out that such views are lacking in even the most basic of feminist analysis or grasp of women's liberation politics.

Just to reply one last time and then hide the thread.
I married a man who had lived 20 years on his own-he did not lose this capability when he met me.
I do not accept sexism in the home and I have not shot my earning capacity to pieces. I will not be left high and dry- it iall sorted. Personal satisfaction isn't in one box -I do masses outside the home.
I do not serve men, I grew up with brothers-I never have done and am not about to start now.
I am not depressed, I would be if I had a job with stress and long hours and I couldn't read for pleasure, garden etc.
I would be dripping tears if I had to get straight back to work and leave my baby-that would be real depression.
Not all women feel the same. Why should they? I t is good that we want different things. Jobs like lawyer or banker would bore me rigid.
I am a team with DH he could change nappies, cook whatever and still does - but there is no longer a call for nappy changing.
I think that I have said all that I can on the subject. Not all women want the same. I can't even see why it is desirable to want the same.

There is also a feminist issue in the question of "sisterly". Women can be combative, forceful and want to win. Any suggestion woemn have to be wimpy and love everyone and give way all the time is yet another thing that keeps women down.