Equality at home - Can this really be achieved?

[marga73]

There is an issue I've been wanting to discuss for a long time. It's the issue of equality inside the house.

Even though women now work and are able to gain respectable positions in the workplace, and we can say that some level of equality has been attained, it seems to me that once they have children, women lose more than men in terms of work opportunities and financial independence. And all because the house and the children still seem to be a "woman's job".

It's all great to find women who are happy being the SAHP, but don't these women feel sometimes that being 100% financially dependent on their husbands is frustrating? Doesn't this situation make them feel trapped and powerless? Is it OK for women to sacrifice their independence for the sake of their children and the house keeping?

I work part-time, and have two small children, and still feel trapped sometimes. I'm grateful in many ways that my husband earns enough so we don't have to worry about paying for mortgage, food, childcare etc - and I contribute to this too - but I feel it's far beyond from the ideal I had when I was young and it really annoys me. If I'm honest, it makes me very angry.

I would like a society where men and women work part time, share domestic tasks 50/50, and look after their children part time, and therefore pay for everything on equal terms. Is this too much to ask in the fierce capitalist society we live today? Am I naive to think that should be the case?

I don't think I would find a man attractive if he couldn't fend for himself and his DC.

I gave birth to two at the same time, so DH and I had to deal with one each. I recommend it. None of the Mother doing everything for and with the baby while Dad looks on .

I also go away regularly to lit festivals, on book tours and to meet foreign publishers etc. DH manages just fine. He can't (or won't) cook though. Which annoys me sometimes. Ohter times I just think it's his funeral.

i want two kinds of equality: within households & at a societical level.

i dont think the majority of women will be equal partners in their own households until women are equal across society.

But how can society determine equality when different people have very different desires as to the division of labour? I don't want external agencies telling me how to live my life - I want the freedom to negotiate my life for myself.

Exactly Bonsoir. I take a dim view of people telling me what I should want and what I should do. I can sort it out for myself. The only reason that I can't stay away from threads like this is because Xenia tells me what I should think, and how I should behave, and thinks that everyone sees life the same way.

Xenia is trying to convince herself that her way is perfect

The personal is political - yes agree with that above.

Some of the housewives on the thread might think they are happy but all they need is the real feminists to lift the scales from their subjugated eyes and they will merrily throw off their French and English domestic chains and be very grateful, kissing the Xenia and others' feet in the process. We will get there.

It might take us 10 years but I shall keep at it until more men than women are at home doing housework and serving and childcare "because they love it" and it is such a scintillating task and they adore the financial dependence - ha ha, as if anyone possibly could like it. We will root this sexism off the planet and will not rest in our beds until we've achieved it.

So you both have equality at home, I have a different type of equality so I think we are all at the forefront. I dont care about the differences between our manifestations of equality.

Barriers to great sex equality work/home:

1. We need more women in leadership roles whether its CEO or running a scout troop.

1. I want women to be active in sports. Womens sport being undervalued is part of being the second sex.

.... And there's more... I am on a train drinking ...... Pina colada to aid thinking

Why such an infantile desire to interfere in other people's lives, Xenia?

Why do we need more women bossing other people around? Leave everyone alone, please.

1. School. Dp runs a school (he has a budget of £3m pa for a giant primary). They have programs, quite rightly for black boys, but are schools failing girls? Imo yes, we aretaught to be good and make sacrifices more than boys

School is a tough one. Girls clearly outperform boys at school but I think that is because the nature of teaching and what is taught suits girls a bit better.

Everyones view is valid. Xenia's view has been no more expressed than the sahm view

In fact the stay at home mothers post more views because they have more time. Satisfied happy working mothers manby of whoem earn a fortune don't have any tneed to write or campaign or describe their views so the media gets a distorted view of women wanting to work tiny hours for a pittance with time to mend their husband's shirts and do the dull school run every day as being the female nirvana when many of us would prefer to set up and of course own the next Glencore and are more than happy to hand the apron either to an husband or anyone else foolish enough to think that the way to happiness is domesticity.

Actually, I think a highly vocal minority of women in power project their own feelings on the rest of the female population far too much and influence policy in their own interests and preferences.

if he is the Head of BP or an MP or similar it can't give, they can hardly say 'don't phone me for the next 3 hours, I am doing my DCs birthday party!' Lots of jobs are not flexible and can't be.

exotic I agree there are some jobs which can't give, but I actually think a lot of seemingly inflexible jobs could be flexible if only we made the effort to adapt our ingrained thinking. It's just that because there are enough people (mostly men) out there who are willing to do the 24/7 version of the job, nobody really bothers to re-think how or whether the job could work on a flexible or part time basis.

I have read some utter tosh by Xenia, but her last comments are so stupid that I can't be bothered to take part any further.

xenia you say SAHMs spend more time posting...a quick search shows in the last month...

Exotic over 500 posts.
Bonsoir 475 posts.
xenia 200 posts.

But look at this...wordfactory 177 posts.

From this highly scientific analysis I hereby declare the most busy and fullfilled parents to be...the part time, flexible, work in the home Mums. Yay.

Mumsnet is such a good way of having a chat with others while DCs do homework and other tasks that require them to interrupt you all the time.

There have been a lot of ideas about how to make the workplace more women-friendly e.g. enforced paternity leave etc.

I find that men whose wives WOH whether ft or pt are naturally more sensitised to the issues women face at work. If you could not have enough women in positions of power yet, there is still hope that their husbands, who can get there more easily, could change the attitude from within.

My dh was discussing his appraisal of one of his female juniors who is a young mother. I reminded him the challenges she faced and how judging by the same standards (whilst arguably fair) are standards that would inevitably hold her back. I reminded him of unconscious bias. He actually seemed surprised. What he takes away from that is anyone's guess, but at least I put the issues on the table.

Another political reason to keep working so as to keep the flag flying high for women at the coalface (if that is what you want to do).

marga, I am nodding at all your posts!

I think that sensitising men to the issues women face at work is crucial - I can often also shed light on issues that women face at work that are opaque for my DP (and he is highly accustomed to working with women as a high percentage of his workforce are women - of childbearing age - and his senior management is mostly female). He is highly receptive and often finds that just by being clear to female employees that he understands the dilemmas they face, they feel a lot stronger to face them.

But women too need to be sensitised to how men function at work! DP knows and admits freely that he loves the testosterone-fuelled fight (for business and to demonstrate his strength) and wishes more women were sensitised to the fact that business functions that way.

I agree blueshoes and Bonsoir. I pointed out to my male boss that it is a lot easier to do a demanding job if you have a SAHW who handles most domestic stuff (which is the position many men are in), than if you have a full time WOH spouse and therefore have to do 50% or more of the domestic stuff yourself (which is the position most women will be in).

His reaction? A surprised "oh yes, I suppose my wife does do a lot for me and that does make it easier ..." It's as if the thought had never occurred to him before .

Don't worry, plentyt of women love testosterone fuelled work fights, power and ambition. It really does keep women down when people suggest we want some major love in, cuddles all day, nicey nicey stuff coupled with housework and that all women are like that. Plenty of us as I say like to run things and outearn men. It's huge fun.