Equality at home - Can this really be achieved?

[marga73]

There is an issue I've been wanting to discuss for a long time. It's the issue of equality inside the house.

Even though women now work and are able to gain respectable positions in the workplace, and we can say that some level of equality has been attained, it seems to me that once they have children, women lose more than men in terms of work opportunities and financial independence. And all because the house and the children still seem to be a "woman's job".

It's all great to find women who are happy being the SAHP, but don't these women feel sometimes that being 100% financially dependent on their husbands is frustrating? Doesn't this situation make them feel trapped and powerless? Is it OK for women to sacrifice their independence for the sake of their children and the house keeping?

I work part-time, and have two small children, and still feel trapped sometimes. I'm grateful in many ways that my husband earns enough so we don't have to worry about paying for mortgage, food, childcare etc - and I contribute to this too - but I feel it's far beyond from the ideal I had when I was young and it really annoys me. If I'm honest, it makes me very angry.

I would like a society where men and women work part time, share domestic tasks 50/50, and look after their children part time, and therefore pay for everything on equal terms. Is this too much to ask in the fierce capitalist society we live today? Am I naive to think that should be the case?

I feel perfectly equal to my DH and there are some things that I don't want to do at all that he does and some things that I want to keep to myself.

marga I agree with you. I wouldn't suggest that that is the way every couple should work - there may be many, like Bonsoir, who prefer to divide things up in a different way which is fine if it suits both partners. But there should at least be the option for both partners to work part time (or even 9-5) and share home duties 50/50 if that is what they want. At the moment that is not really an option for most of us, as the part time jobs simply don't exist.

Feeling equal is not the same as "being equal".

I can feel very equal to the Prime Minister as I am a human being that contributes to society in many ways, like him.

However, in real terms, he's got power, a full on relevant career, influence, privilege, and the money that comes with all of the above. I don't.

Do I want to be him? I many ways yes, in some, no.

Does he want to be me? Definitely, no.

Please, we're grown up people, trying to deceive yourselves and others doesn't help neither the individual nor society.

I don't want to be the PM in anyway whatsoever. I could do a huge list of why not, and I don't think that I could think of a single reason for wanting the job. We are all different.
I love having most of the childcare and less of the paid work and luckily this suits DH. The only problem comes if you can't agree with your partner.

PM was an extreme example to show my point.

Of course at the end of the day it's just down to the couple to decide how to split work outside and inside the house. But the decisions that we make as a couple are very conditioned by the outside world, that is, business job market etc. So you're not that free to choose when the options are so limited.

And that leads to most women usually staying at home with the children and doing the mountains of domestic work that comes with it. Which in turn results in a very unequal situation, where one person becomes financially dependant on the other.

I can't think of this as a fair choice, especially in the case of two equally educated adults, who expect fulfillment from their jobs and their family life on equal terms.

marga - i think that is a good summary.

this thread keeps taking me back to 'the personal is political.

You are on the wrong track entirely if you feel inferior to the PM, marga73.

I think it's nice that exotic and Bonsoir are so happy with their set ups vis a vis the domestic and wage earning roles.. I'm sure their DH's are too.

But Marga makes a fair point that many many women are not happy to be shoe horned into permenantly staying at home. They are equally well educated and capable as their partners yet, two eyars seems to turn into ten years, followed by a few [part time jobs barely scratching the surface of their talents.

I know that when I gave up work, the thought that I would never make any serious money again, that I wouldn't be able to make a decent pension provision for myself, that I wouldn't gain any recognition from outside my familial arena was deeply deeply depressing. The last point in particular.

I knew I couldn't go back to my old job and have happy DC and a happy homelife (no point yappering on about sexism and sharing domestic duties. Some jobs just can't incorporate that no matter how much we want it) but I also knew I could not sustain a life only centred around home and family. I am the same as my DH in this.

What we need to address is how all those women who feel that way, can be allowed some freedoms. Simply telling them that they should love being with their DC enough to put aside any ambition, is as puerile as telling them they should simply plough on in the world of work regardless of their families.

If you want to use your talents and skills in a meaningful way to earn money PT, you will have to do it on your own terms and have your own business. Which is what I do, only it is very insignificant (to me, anyway!) compared to the rest of what I do.

I think it's nice that exotic and Bonsoir are so happy with their set ups vis a vis the domestic and wage earning roles.. I'm sure their DH's are too.

But surely this is the secret-discuss it first-don't go blindly in with assumptions. Don't marry the person, live with them or have DCs if you are not going to have the same game plan in operation.
I wouldn't be PM for anything and I think that DH becoming PM would be grounds for divorce!
We have always made the plan that if he couldn't work for any reason we would swap. He has been made redundant twice, so it might easily have happened because I can get work easily enough. If he wanted time off to write a book, or similar, then I would do it. If he wanted to do 50/50 childcare I would do it to be fair-luckily he hasn't because I really loved being the main child carer.
People change so it is fair enough that you might review periodically.
We have also sorted out the finances, we have just done our wills because we no longer need guardians and it is more concern what happens in old age. Our money (ie. the money he can only earn with my help) is sorted. Once you have been widowed with a baby you tend to plan for the worst case scenario and not trust to luck.
A lot of the problem is that people don't discuss it all. There are threads on here where people ask the point of a marriage certificate-they have absolutely no idea of the sort of mess they can get into without one. I discussed it with my solicitor when making the wills and she has been responsible for 7 couples getting married recently-just by pointing out the difference it does make!

also knew I could not sustain a life only centred around home and family. I am the same as my DH in this.

Neither could I-it would drive me barmy! Not having full time paid employment doesn't mean you are stuck in the house.

exotic but the point is that no matter how much you discuss how you would like things to be post DC, the situation doesn't always accommodate it.

DH and I both assumed we would continue to work, but it proved incompatible with family life. That is what the op is getting at isn't it? That many many women want to work, and do not want to be consigned to the role of undertaking the domestic duties, but that is how things end up.

As for interacting on a level beyond the familial and domestic, it is very difficult to do so once you are a SAHP. You may become involved in school, or voluntary work but it is very difficult to do anything on a larger wider scale. I can see from your posts exotic that that sort of scale is not for you, and that is fine, but for some of us, it is very frustrating.

I am very fortunate to have established a career that allows me the interaction I crave while still being available to my DC (I am MNing from the ice rink as we speak, it being Easter holidays) but so many women aren't able to do that.

Such a conundrum.

"As for interacting on a level beyond the familial and domestic, it is very difficult to do so once you are a SAHP."

I don't that's true at all. I, and others of my friends, serve on Boards, in think tanks etc. We'd never be asked to do those things now if we'd never worked, that's for sure, but no longer working in a corporate environment does not preclude us being asked for our opinions (and perhaps having more time than some to develop informed opinions - I speak from experience ).

Thinking about it - probably being an SAHP and living rurally would be a bit of killer for interacting with society at an interesting level. But when you live in a big city there are always lots of opportunities to do interesting things.

I think that we go around in circles. Basically having DCs is incompatible with two parents who work full time in demanding jobs-something has to give, either one of the parents- or the child in that they have to spend more time with other people than the parent.
Most people's gripe is that it is the mother who gives and not the father. It would make it easier if things were made easier for the man in the work place, but if he is the Head of BP or an MP or similar it can't give, they can hardly say 'don't phone me for the next 3 hours, I am doing my DCs birthday party!' Lots of jobs are not flexible and can't be.

This is the reason that women are not well represented in these jobs. If you want one yourself you either have to arrange with DP or you have to buy childcare, homecare, elderly parent care etc.

Even if society changes dramatically so that women with DCs get equal opportunities, you still need a partner to be in agreement-either sex. DH can't go off and be PM without me being accommodating. He wouldn't get very far if I said 'OK, but I'm continuing in our house and I won't move to London'.

But when Bonsoir?

I take the DC to school and beofre I know where I am, it's time to collect them. I know you even do the lunchtime run too! With all the other stuff SAHPs do (cooking, shopping, cleaning etc) where isthe time for thinktanks and wotnot? It can't be a regular occurance surely?

I have help with all that (housekeeper) and that's why I have time to work. But I have to shuffle my butt to get it done I can tell you.

I'm taking on a role in September outside the home. It's only one day and one evening per week. But the logistics!!!!

I agree, exoticfruits, and I think that the only issue about not working a lot is not earning a lot! All the other issues are red herrings.

DCs should come with a warning- Your life will never be the same again. They have very basic needs, but lots of love, attention and TIME, from the parents are essential.
How the parents do it is up to them but they do have to be there-physically and mentally for at least a few hours a day.

The older the DC the more they understand this-they do not want to be loaded with money and material goods.

Well -not strictly true. but they don't want it as a substitute.

I have eight meetings a year that take a shortish day each - DD goes to the canteen on those days but I can be there at pick up (there is flexibility on times, so around 5.30). And then I have other things that I do for those meetings that are very flexible time wise - no short deadlines. And then there are some other things - a job cropped up for me this weekend that required me to write something for today (there'll be other things in due course). I mulled it over for 48 hours, talked it over with DP last night, he briefed one of the recipients for me this morning (that was a bit of luck ) and I wrote the document this afternoon - took about 2.5 hours - and sent it. DD has watched Mr Popper's Penguins very happily in the background. That's fine too - she's on holiday but did a painting class this morning and we went out to lunch and it was conveniently raining so we couldn't go out this afternoon anyway!

Yes it can be achieved. I work full time, my OH works part time, also does the practical and financial side of our business while I deal with phone and email. Our jobs are in addition to this. He comes home for the children, does all the cooking (not puddings) and hoovering and a lot of the cleaning. I do the planning, keep timetables in my head and all the laundry. We have never argued about it - we just have our areas of strength. Except when I was on maternity leave, he has always done at least as much with the children.

We joke about each having our own machines to work - he has the Hoover and the Cooker and Mower, I have the Washing Machine and Tumble Dryer and Computer.

It helps that we had both coped very well alone for years and neither of us came straight from being coddled by Mum (or Dad). Surely that is the case with many nowadays?

Same here Rose.I had done everything as a single parent-including being a SAHM and being a WOHM and DH had lived alone for years-including having worked abroad. We knew what we wanted and we said so.
Being older I was also ruled by my head, in addition to heart, and wouldn't want anyone who couldn't hoover, cook, change nappies, wash up, leave for a week with the DCs while I went away etc. Many women treat DP as an extra DC and have to issue instructions before they go out, or they let him leave her with all the housework.

You need to start early. Mention on here getting a 4 yr old to set a table and you get mutterings of 'might as well send them up the chimneys'. I have DSs-they are quite capable of cooking, cleaning, doing their washing etc and they could boil a kettle at 8yrs without scalding themselves!

"Many women treat DP as an extra DC and have to issue instructions before they go out."

To my amazement, I find this to be true of some of my close friends. It seems to get worse, too, as the years go by.

I use my stepmother status to good effect here. How could it possibly be my responsibility to take care of DP and the DSSs when the three of them are alone at home for a week while DD and I are away? I don't leave instructions and, apart from ensuring that our home is well-stocked with basics, I make no particular provisions for anything.