Religion is sexist!

[startail]

DD2, 11 has decided religion is sexist. I don't think any of you will disagree, but thoughts please.

Surely that just means that those Jewish communities are just as misogynistic as the Catholic Church? I'm not saying Catholicism has the monopoly on misogyny, not by any means!

I agree with your priest friend. Expecting someone to forego such a basic physical and emotional need as sex for the whole of their adult life is just too much to ask. It makes me sick to see older people in Ireland expressing surprise at all the paedophilia scandals - the fact that priests and brothers "interfered" with children was well known about when my mother was a child and yet no one did anything about it because the priest was the law and you just didn't question it. Totally sick.

Sorry that second paragraph was to edam.

I wondered whether people knew it was going on but kept quiet, Cailin. Sickening.

Of course they knew about it. It was accepted as just "one of those things." My mother still has that attitude towards child abuse, in fact that was her attitude when I told her I was abused, it's just something that happens and you have to get over it.

I think religious structures and practices can be (and sadly often are) sexist, like every other structure and practice in society. The church doesn't exist in isolation from a patriarchal society. However as a Christian feminist I don't think that this changes the core message of Christianity, and I see it as more important to work to change the church than to give up on it completely.

BTW the churching of women was a historical practice but is now totally unheard of in the Western Church (Anglicanism and RCC), and rightly so. I have never heard of anyone even of my great-grandparents generation (both CofE and RCC) being churched.

I am not sure why the celibacy of priests has been added into the mix here other than that it has to do with attitudes to sex. I am less convinced than some here about the celibacy of priests being the root cause of the child abuse scandals. I don't know of any evidence that celibacy is a predictor of who is more likely to abuse children, and given the wide range of contexts in which abuse happens (and that the #1 context of child abuse is within the family), I think that, like rape, child abuse is about exploitation of power rather than sex. I think the root cause was a totally inadequate process of selection of candidates for ordination (Anglicans and the RCC now require psychological evaluations for people applying to be priests), a culture of total deference to priests (which has also changed) and lack of child safeguarding structures at a parish and diocese level (again also changed now). Also excluding women from decision making (which is still a problem) must also be part of it.

Do I think that some people are genuinely called to celibacy? Yes. Do I think that the number of those is actually very few, fewer than are in the priesthood? Yes, and that is why I support a married priesthood (as is the case in my own church). I am also fairly sure that the RCC will at some point change the rules on this. Also important to note that the RCC is actually an outlier on this issue: Anglicans and the Eastern Churches (Eastern Orthodox etc., which are in communion with the RCC) permit married priests.

The thing is FairPhyllis, Catholicism would have to change from the roots up to become less misogynistic, which in the end would essentially make it a different religion. The Pope has made it clear that he has no intention of changing anything which leaves Catholics like me with only two choices - put up with the misogyny or leave. I chose to leave.

It will be difficult to change to change the RCC, I agree, and change will not come from the popes. But churches can and do transform themselves. I think that the RCC will ordain women in my lifetime.

Cailin, I'm very sorry to hear about your abuse and your mother's lack of support - that's terrible.

Fairphyllis, there was a discussion about celibacy a few posts back - I think that might be at least partly responsible for the misogyny of the Catholic church. Women are good enough to do all the drudgery, but not to hold office.

(but it reminded me of my Mother's friend and his take on celibacy, as a celibate priest.)

yes it is

you will always get those who quote a line from religious text stating the greatness of women

read the whole text and it is very clear that women are only good for one thing and that is having babies

I'm not convinced that celibacy causes child abuse and I think saying that sex is a "need" rather than a "desire" can be dangerous. I feel it almost gives people permission to get sex by whatever means they can. You could forgive someone for stealing a loaf of bread to feed a hungry family because food is a need, apply that same rule to sex and it becomes rape.

However, I do think celibacy as a rule for priests is wrong. Not because denying them sex turns them into rabid paedophiles but because someone who is a paedophile will be attracted to a profession where he is not expected to have a loving relationship with another adult and where his lack of an adult partner will not attract attention.

I think the idea of a paedophilia being a consequence of arrested development has been discredited? Or am I wrong?

Cailin i second what edam said. Im sorry about what happened to you and that your mum didnt believe you. Thats horrific.
Something happned to me in Italy when i was ten but it wasnt full abuse i dont think. Someone did overstep the mark though.

I think the issue with Catholic priests and pedophilia isn't entirely a result of celibacy, but it was also driven by other things priests have to do, especially withdrawing from the normal community. Unlike most Protestant pastors, Catholic priests have to live lives without personal links, and when they go out they wear special clothing. It's as if when a young man joins them, they say "From now on you're one of US, and you'll live by OUR laws." And if one of those priests can't contain his sexuality, there are no social rules guiding him--to be sexual at all is a terrible sin, so he's the last man who'll be out there looking for a respectful relationship with someone his own age. Anything he does is going to be furtive and based on what he can do easily and be most likely to get away with.

Year ago I worked with a man who told me that as a child, he had been abused by a Catholic priest. I suppose he thought I was more approachable than most people he knew, but I'm not totally happy to have heard the story, though maybe it helped him. In his case, he told his mother, and his parents went to the church authorities, and the result was that the priest was moved elsewhere, and he went on to have plenty more victims. He ended up in prison. The man said, "Mum told me to do everything the priest said. I was just a little kid, I didn't know." It breaks your heart.

@TeiTetua yes that's the problem. It discourages healthy adult relationships if they do arise as healthy ones are ones that are out in the open and public within the community.

Priests that do have a relationship are encouraged to keep it secret rather than you know, marry the woman and give her stability.

I'd like to speak up a bit on behalf of Catholicism. I've been a practicing Catholic forever - I grew up in rural Ireland and my whole entire extended family is Catholic...to the point where I am the first one to marry a Protestant!! And he even grew to love the Catholic Church so much he became a Catholic.

I have never ever found a community that has been as good to me and as ind to me as the people in my Church. The whole idea that women are treated differently is ludicrous...I KNOW, because I am fully involved in the Church in a way I guess many of its detractors are not. I had two children before I recently got married, and no one gave a shit! In fact, we were welcomed with open arms and people - priests too - couldn't wait to see my babies! It was a real celebration!

I have only ever heard priests esteem women, and give us the dignity as humans we deserve.

As for paedophile priests - here in Ireland boys were EXPECTED to join the Church. Many of them were totally wrong for it. And we can all see the results. My good friend was a priest in Omagh at the time of the bomb. He left soon after, and has since got married (happier than ever). He said it was because of the bomb, but his mother (a v. Irish Catholic woman in the traditional sense) died just a few weeks earlier. I can't say for sure, but my feeling is he hadn't wanted to disappoint her by leaving while she was alive.

It annoys me when people who aren't part of the Catholic Church say in such a blanket way that it is pretty rubbish. Yes, parts are...I would LOVE to see women priests, and married priests....but lots of it is GREAT! A priest even saved my life once (I was severely anorexic, and he became my great mentor and salvation, in a way). I hate to see people disparage them when truth be told there are millions of people who love being part of it. Just like I do.

edit to message above Kind instead of ind!! ;)

''I have only ever heard priests esteem women, and give us the dignity as humans we deserve. ''

Yes, esteem women and give them dignity so long as the women stay in their place. Patriarchal monotheism has been one thing to women and that is bad news. It's taken away our rights, our dignity as fully adult human beings and made us as dependent eternal children, who must always be under the authority of a man. Unless these Catholic priests of yours are part of the renegade liberal off-shoots then I very much doubt they actually esteem women.

@miloben it is interesting how these things always turn into catholocism bashing threads. I have talked about them as I am catholic myself.

These attitudes are not unique to catholocism but criticism of other religions is thin on the ground.

Catholicism deserves a lot of bashing. No doubt other religions do as well, but a religion that is responsible for systemic child abuse with thousands of victims, let alone all the avoidable deaths from AIDS, let alone the horrific treatment of women (Magdelene laundries, anyone?) can expect a little criticism.

i thought we were talking about the treatment of women. there are plenty of other places to have a catholic bash on mn. there's prob one a day.

i think people just aren't educated about the horrors of other religions.

YOu think children being ritualy circumcised in islam and judaism is acceptable?

The fact that Catholicism doesn't allow contraception is enough to convince me that it is a ridiculous backward religion that hates women. And I was brought up Catholic, and quite devout until my late teens. I don't know enough about other religions to comment on them, but if other religions are just as bad, so what? That doesn't make Catholicism any less hateful.

What Cailin said.

BTW thanks for your kind words edam and carer. Sorry to hear something happened to you carer, if you feel like talking about it please do join our support thread here

carer, if anyone oversteps the mark in any way with a 10 yr old, it' s abuse. 10 is too young to give consent to anything.

It was when we were on a family holiday in Italy when i was a kid. My 15 year old male cousin would come into my bedroom and kiss me and it was proper adult kissing. We were there for 2 weeks and it didnt go any further than that. I never told my mum in case i got the blame but it did come out in a row with my dad when i was 16 and he said there was no point mentioning it and "causing trouble over there"
When i was 17 i got offered a lift home from an Italian bloke whose wife used to babysit us at their house. This is why i thought it was safe. It was only after i got in the car that i could smell booze and he kept asking me to kiss him. I was terrified and had visions of him not taking me to my home at all.Luckily he did but this time i did tell my parents and my dad went mental about him. However my mum blamed me but the reason i got in his car was cos i thought it was safe cos she used to leave us at his house when we were kids.
I do NOT trust Italian blokes at all after these experiences.