Unhappy dad seeking feminist advice

[UnimaginitiveDadThemedUsername]

"We're princesses. We like dressing up and shopping."

Had a friend's daughter stay over this Saturday with our DD (both 3 1/2), and this is what we heard for most of the day from the two of them. This is pretty much the straw that is breaking the camel's back (even more so than the pink toy washing machine given to us by my mother-in-law when I wasn't there).

My question is this - how hard am I going to have to fight so DD grows up to realise that she is a person in her own right and not someone else's chattel or arm candy? I'm wondering if it's a lost cause.
Ironically, I feel that my efforts are and will continue to be sabotaged by women who know nothing else (see washing machine incident above). I mention stuff in a non-confrontational way to female members of the family and feel like they don't take me seriously.

Any practical suggestions? Or should I stop worrying?

I found the porn question and the question about his role in encouraging feminism to be spot on. He was telling us about what the world should do better and how women should become more pro-active. Someone then challenged him to become more pro-active and set an example to his dd by not viewing porn which dehumanises women, to take on his fair share of housework and to treat women as equals.

He didn't come back.

I think it was a fair and valid point to make. If you feel so strongly about gender equality as the OP did in his posts, then you have to take on your own share of responsibility too instead of posting things like "The more women who can do what a man can do throughout their working lives (not just up to the point when they have their first child), the better. It will illustrate how ridiculous it is to be chauvinist, and even make it easier for those who choose not to follow the same route because it will show being a homemaker to be a genuine choice." which puts the emphasis on women to make the changes instead of on men to end the objectification of women.

So therefore, challenging him on what he would do, personally, to stop the objectification of women which he was so pre-occupied with was fair.

I applaud him for confronting these issues but still remain concerned about his high expectations for his dd.

To be fair, he may still be reading, if not commenting, and so may others who are facing similar dilemmas, so that's not a bad thing.

I'm wondering if some of the divergence here is related to the issue of porn. Can a person hold non-sexist values and demonstrate them in their life if they also consume porn? I don't believe they can because the central message of pornography, which is embedded in the multi-billion pound industry that produces and markets it is the objectification and degradation of women. That doesn't square with equality of the sexes at all. I'm not convinced at all by the argument that one can "enjoy porn," without it having a jot of influence on how they see themselves or others, particularly women and girls.

And with respect to children, I'm increasingly concerned about the exposure of children to images and messages from "mainstream" porn. It is readily accessible from the internet and the content would have been described as extreme, niche or very hard core even 20 years ago. It's accessible via most mobile phones and can be transmitted between them. I've seen children as young as 7 or 8 who have these devices and perhaps parents aren't aware what can be accessed with them, or more worrying, don't care. There are educational and child psychologists who are extremely worried about the impact of such exposure on quite young children, how it is informing their understanding of what sex is about, how women and men, girls and boys should be regarded. It's damaging their capacity to form healthy, equitable, respectful and reciprocal relationships in the future.

Kids are naturally nosey. Adults can think they're concealing things from them - the sneaky cigarette or toke of hash, the hidden bottle of vodka, the secret diary and the porn stash (print or electronic.) They know more and take in more than we may believe. So, a parent genuinely committed to breaking gender stereotypes and not perpetuating sexism, imho, needs to live those values 24/7.

He did post to say his intention was to shut up and listen rather than tell women how to do feminism. Which is sensible. So maybe he is. Or maybe he isn't. But that's what he said.

Picking up on only one of Kritiqs post, I can't imagine what it must be like to be a girl and find a stash of explicit porn in your own home. Not because sex is bad, but to see women like you, your mum, your friends, in that context must be a massive shock.

It has always made me feel queasy and I first saw porn as an older teenager.

Kritiq's points, obv. Not post.

Yes, I think that's important Victor. I also wanted to point out that I don't think either men or women can use porn without the messages of objectification and degradation of women and masculinity defined by control and conquest impacting on them. This is magnified for young people whose ideas about sex, relationships and men and women are just forming.

This thread is nothing more than a lesson in how to alienate not educate.

Its all very well, trying to get people to think, but when someone comes and asks a question which is a positive thing and a positive thing to do in terms of feminism, then perhaps you might want to consider encouraging that and not being rude and confrontational in the process?

There are a lot of valid points in here, but I really do take exception to the tone, and aggressiveness of a few posters here. The message gets lost in it all. Its not welcoming, its not polite and it doesn't encourage people to come and ask questions about a subject which is important.

Just a thought. One that will fall on deaf ears I suspect.

In response to the OP - DS made a 'peow peow stick' (aka a gun) at nursery out of a twig when he was 2. Similarly, DD can't resist playing with the dustpan and brush in the utility room. We bought them both kitchens when they were 3 and it was DS (now 8) who played with it the most, not DD.

I hear what you're saying about resisting gender stereotypes but unfortunately for you they will play however they like, even if that means your DD making a 'peow peow stick' or going around the living room floor with the dustpan and brush.

In that case, Hmmmm, why don't you offer some polite, welcoming, encouraging advice of your own?

Don't point at the lack - fill it.

I think it is great that you are thinking about this. I am currently reading a book on just this topic "Princess Recovery - a guide to raising strong, empowered girls who can create their own happy endings". You might find it interesting. "Cinderella Ate My Daughter" is another good book on this subject of how to help your daughter resist pressure from advertising and society in this direction.

Victor, pointing out what others are doing is valid when its to the detriment to other people.

There are a lot of self confessed rad feminists on this thread. And much has been made of 'liberating' women from the menz rather than the focus being on equality.

The trouble with that approach is that there are women who in doing so, don't want to engage with the patriarchy in anyway - they just want to attack people and to demonise them and those who they think are associates. If they listen to men they are somehow being influenced by the patriarchy and brainwashed into their way of thinking. Actively welcoming men to discuss feminist issues doesn't fall into the ideology of rad feminism, so every attempt to block bringing men into the discourse is therefore legitimate.

Instead, its much better to attack and ask rude and rather personal questions about whether they use porn or not, to undermine them, paint them as the enemy and to otherwise make them look bad. Even the ones who seemingly seem openminded and want to. Whilst at the same time dressing it up as 'challenging views' and 'educating'. Its not. Its a very deliberate and very cynical way of driving various groups away from this section so that debate can be strangulated in a certain way for a certain agenda.

As a somewhat sour faced 'fun-fem' or egalitarian (take your pick of which I happen to be) I think its crucial to actually try and make every effort possible to get men interested and excited in 'feminist' ideas and issues. All I'm seeing here is exactly the opposite.

Its highly relevant and very important to actually be saying on the FWR boards that there is a bunch of people who want to make others welcome and want to shake off some of the rampant propaganda pushing thats going on here.

I want any man who wants to ask questions to feel able to without getting 'The Treatment' to push him out and to make this a safe woman only space recruitment section for rad feminism.

So yeah, Victor my contribution to this thread is to try and get more of a positive response to people asking questions like this. Especially when I very strongly suspect they would be given a very different response had the OP been gender neutral in name and what they posted. Even with references to female family members.

Lets see... yes. We have this thread here

Very difference response.

Like I say, this thread isn't about education in the slightest. Its everything to do with division and alienation.

Very interesting to watch and read how the course of debate in the FWR section is influenced by the gender of posters.

THANK YOU MmmmThinkingAboutIt, my thoughts exactly. Certain posters here have been wwwwwaaaaay too aggressive to the OP.

(This thread has inspired me to go out and fill DD's dress up box, though)

But why would feminism want men who watch pornography involved? Or men that just seek to criticise 'feminine' behaviours? What possible benefit would that bring to the movement?

Men who watch pornography are the enemy. They are. They really are. They are the enemy to women, they are the enemy to those men who are themselves resisting patriarchy. That's not an 'agenda' - that's a simple fact. Radical feminism might not be your way (it's not always mine) but it is bang on when it gets onto many issues, and pornography is one of them.

No feminist of any stripe needs these men. No woman needs one of them in her life. Including the OP's daughter.

You've ignored the male voice on this very thread that is engaged with by a feminist, btw. Plenty of men are engaged with. If men want to take part in any kind of feminist chat they have to foreground and acknowledge their male privilege. Insisting upon that is absolutely engaging with the patriarchy, is it not?

And while I'm on that - how, precisely, do you expect feminists to engage with the patriarchy while constantly being pleasant and accomodating to its greatest beneficiaries?

There is going to be 'division' and 'alienation' - between those who want to bring about equality, and those who don't.

If a man (or woman) watches pornography, it's not the feminist asking questions about it that 'undermines' him or her. They've done that all by himself.

Equally, it's not the feelings of the pornography-watching man that I'm bothered about - there's a whole queue of women I need to work through before I get to him.

'themselves', not 'himself'

"self confessed rad feminists"

Being a radical feminist doesn't require a confession. It's nothing to be ashamed of.

Nobody asked the OP if he used porn. What I actually said was to help his daughter it would be a good idea to commit to behaving non-misogynistically and challenging misogyny when he sees it. I also noted that one of the best ways fathers can do this is by committing not to use pornography given how harmful it is to women and girls. It was an example to help him see the point being made. Putting all the focus on his daughter rather than himself is a mistake. Parents lead their children by example.

Just to get back to the initial issue of pink, fluffy stuff and what constitutes gender appropriate clothes.

Don't elevate boys things at the expense of girls' things. I know, I know, the girly things are thrust at you all the time, from all angles, and the sheer volume of it and the assumptions of so many people may make you worry that your DD will be buried alive in a pink avalanche.

The best thing you could do with your DD is to spend time with her, doing things she enjoys, and having her help you or participate with you in things you enjoy, letting her choose her own clothes, colours, hairstyle, nail polish, or whatever else she wants, within reason (temperature, occasion). Second guessing her choices in these matters actually reinforces the relentless societal scrutiny of what girls and women are like on the outside -- on what they look like as opposed to what they do. It is really important to let her choose and to support her choices, and not to have her think that choosing the girly stuff means you won't be as much there in support or even in activities as you would if she made the 'right choice'.

A very interesting article from the BBC today on Afghan girls who are presented as boys during their childhood; illustrated the value placed on boys as opposed to girls in that society, the way the genders are so clearly demarcated there, and the (probably inadvertent) positive effect on girls of being allowed to spend time with males, either children or adults, and treated equally (but sadly only because of the deception). Afghanistan has a long, long way to go. But I think treating girls who are all pinkified in the west as somehow being the sum total of what they are wearing is almost as bad.

And I want to add, boys' clothes are equally loaded with cultural messages, but they don't get half the scrutiny that the clothes of girls do.

I deal with it by making up tales about princesses who save princes and vanquish dragons. I also explain that "real" princesses are often very good at sports and they don't wear big frocks to play tennis.

For me, Idon't think there's been too much aggressive rad fem stuff on this thread at all. (and fwiw the OP wasn't asked directly if he masturbates to porn, not that it's any of other posters business if he does.)

There's probably a watershed in thinking as to what is crucially important, from a quote from someone saying:

"I also noted that one of the best ways fathers can do this is by committing not to use pornography given how harmful it is to women and girls."

I don't think this is the case. There are far more potent messages to our young girls than whether their dad 'uses' pornography.

Pan, I would turn that around

"there is no more potent message for a young girl than to discover her father is a consumer of pornography"

Good point, AF. Revises position.

My dad using porn turned me into a radical feminist. Wearing pink didn't get in the way.

The only way for society to change and for patriarchy to be eradicated so women can be equal and free is for men to start behaving differently. That's the bottom line for fathers who want their children to grow up in a non-sexist world.

The OP was not asked any personal questions and he has been engaged and debated with. To say that we all attacked a poor defenceless man is very patronising. The OP sounded to me like a very articulate and educated man who made some very valid points but also raised some concerns about how he viewed his daughter's personality and why he was willing to blame society for who she was rather than just accepting her. He started a very good debate about women's role in society and suggested that women seek to change this power divide and this patriarchal society. Some posters then made a very good point that men too, can change society and that the OP could start with himself and provide a very good role model for his dd.

Porn usage is part of this patriarchal and misogynistic society so it seems only natural that it should discussed. You cannot have a debate about how women are viewed in society without touching upon porn. It's like the elephant in the room otherwise.

No-one asked the OP if he used it, it was just suggested that as part of setting a good example, he should steer clear from it and take a pro-active role himself in illustrating to his daughter that men and women are equal.

Some brilliant points have been made but still a few will try to turn this into an example of a man-hating thread. I'd be the first to jump on any poster who showed any contempt or derision of a male poster as I have done in the past (and I still bear the scars). The OP has been welcomed and has provoked an honest and open debate. Those who say that he has been patronised and jumped on need to show evidence for this because I haven't seen this happening at all. As for accusing people of being radical feminists - really? Is that your argument? Is that the best you can come up with?

Either engage in the debate and show some intelligence or move onto the chat threads.

Nyac made a good point about the OP putting the focus entirely on his daughter and that is what a few of us pointed out to him.

You could read this and think about it, OP. This is what your DD is facing as she grows older.

The attitudes of Rush Limbaugh and thousands (millions?) like him won't crawl back beneath the rocks they oozed out from under until men who can think and feel empathy and care about girls and women and about men and boys too, because this is toxic for them also and speak out and fight against them.