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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Unhappy dad seeking feminist advice

176 replies

UnimaginitiveDadThemedUsername · 26/03/2012 17:32

"We're princesses. We like dressing up and shopping."

Had a friend's daughter stay over this Saturday with our DD (both 3 1/2), and this is what we heard for most of the day from the two of them. This is pretty much the straw that is breaking the camel's back (even more so than the pink toy washing machine given to us by my mother-in-law when I wasn't there).

My question is this - how hard am I going to have to fight so DD grows up to realise that she is a person in her own right and not someone else's chattel or arm candy? I'm wondering if it's a lost cause.
Ironically, I feel that my efforts are and will continue to be sabotaged by women who know nothing else (see washing machine incident above). I mention stuff in a non-confrontational way to female members of the family and feel like they don't take me seriously.

Any practical suggestions? Or should I stop worrying?

OP posts:
Chubfuddler · 27/03/2012 11:10

I like the way you assume a road sweeper or hairdresser is beneath your child's potential. You don't know that.

Nyac · 27/03/2012 11:18

How your daughter grows up is less important than whether or not you make a commitment to not be misogynistic or sexist. The problem isn't girls liking pink, the problem is men as a group's attachment to sexism and misogyny. Something that hasn't changed yet.

You'll help your daughter a lot more by doing that than making judgements about Rosalind Franklin and Amy Childs (which is frankly stupid, it's like saying that James Watson was more important than Justin Beiber - why even make such a silly comparison?)

Nyac · 27/03/2012 11:19

I also think every father should make a vow not to use pornography. That would change the world a lot more than judgements about pinkness or princesses.

UnimaginitiveDadThemedUsername · 27/03/2012 12:15

The problem isn't girls liking pink, the problem is men as a group's attachment to sexism and misogyny.

The problem is a setup in society that is now outdated. For a long time humans structured their lives around a sexual division of labour because work was predominantly physical. We've now reached the point in the first world where work is predominantly intellectual and capable of being performed by either gender, yet the traditional structure (which I don't think is necessarily to mens' advantage) still exists.

Where does "mis-" and "-ism" come from? The belief that a group is inferior to your group. How do you counter that belief? By seeing that the 'inferior' group can perform at the same level as your own. If we want to end sexism and misogyny, then I see the most effective way of doing so is to stop having reduced expectations for women and to stop under-employing women.

The more women who can do what a man can do throughout their working lives (not just up to the point when they have their first child), the better. It will illustrate how ridiculous it is to be chauvinist, and even make it easier for those who choose not to follow the same route because it will show being a homemaker to be a genuine choice. To me, getting individuals to make pledges or commitments without this action is like bailing out a leaky boat with a teacup.

OP posts:
Chubfuddler · 27/03/2012 12:17

I love being told how to be a feminist by a man.

UnimaginitiveDadThemedUsername · 27/03/2012 12:25

I'm not telling anyone how to be a feminist.

OP posts:
Chubfuddler · 27/03/2012 12:27

I think you are actually. In fact worse than that you're telling women how to be people i.e. more like men. Brilliant.

UnimaginitiveDadThemedUsername · 27/03/2012 12:34

Actually, apart from thinking that the main advances in equality came from the workplace, I also think that men now have a great opportunity to be less like 'men' have traditionally been. So I'm not really wanting women to be more like men at all.

But I originally came here for advice - which I got, and am grateful for (even the stuff about chilling out and not over-thinking things). I'm not here for an argument about feminism, and I regret being dragged into one. I'll stop posting here and return to reading.

OP posts:
TheRhubarb · 27/03/2012 12:41

I don't think you actually answered my questions.

What is the issue you wanted to raise?
Did you want to know whether your dd is being brainwashed by society and the media?
Or did you want us all to tell you to force her into trousers, ban pink and enrol her on a DIY course?

If you are not careful, you will end up with a repressed child who, once she gets to be a teenager will know exactly how to wind you up and exactly how to rebel.

SeaHouses · 27/03/2012 12:42

How are women underemployed? Women do most of the world's work, especially the 'physical' work. Even in the UK, men have more leisure time than women. What is needed is for more men to do their fair share of work, not for women to do more.

Is this thread meant to be a joke thread?

KRITIQ · 27/03/2012 12:55

Keeping it simple, talk with your daughter. It's never too early. Engage her in questioning the stuff she does, the stuff she sees so she'll grow up able to unpick things, not just take them at face value and make at least more informed decisions for herself.

Take great care in making the choices you do for her. Childcare, health care, play, toys, games, reading material, friends and associates, family outings, etc. Think about the examples set by the people involved (if there are people) and the messages she is likely to gain from being involved and/or using the item.

Set a good example of how to be loyal to your humanity rather than your manhood. Be aware of gender stereotypes and don't collude with them. That can be harder than it appears because these are so much the "wallpaper" around us that we don't always notice, but try hard. Examine your own choices, why it is that you make them and how that "looks" to your daughter. As someone said above, vow not to consume porn or collude with sexist words and actions of others, and challenge these wherever possible. Live the values.

Acknowledge that our patriarchal institutions, traditions, societal values, economic systems, etc. will be sending out a very different message from you to your daughter, relentlessly. Accept that you can't shield her from that all the time and certainly not forever, but do what you can to minimise the impact as much as you can. There will be people you care about who don't "get this," and don't see the damage of commercialisation and sexualisation of children - may even be cheerleaders for it. Where possible, challenge and question them on what they do. She's your daughter, it's in your gift to refuse a gift that you feel is not appropriate. Explain your reasoning but don't expect that everyone will understand. They may have their own reasons for not rocking the patriarchal boat. Talk with your daughter about stuff they say and do though so she won't just feel she has to absorb it without questioning. Consider whether you can do without some "friends" who don't understand or accept your view - often they can be hard work for little reward.

Recognise that she's a person in her own right, and she'll make choices of her own - more of them, the older she gets. She'll make mistakes. She may not "get it." Don't push her away from stuff or towards other stuff where it's clear she's not really up for it. You could get the rebound effect with the allure of taboo pink and glitter being too much to resist!

Realise you won't get it right all the time, but don't give up thinking it's too hard to bother. You can never know when one thing you say or do will actually be the thing that sticks with her, that helps her to engage more effectively with the sexism all around her, helps her to survive and thrive at a later date.

Accept that you'll get criticised from all quarters. You're making too much of a song and dance and should just accept that naturally boys and girls are different. You're depriving your daughter of things she wants and she'll get bullied for being different. You're not doing enough to eschew your own male privilege. Don't expect any pats on the back. Don't do it for that.

Hey, good luck.

blackcurrants · 27/03/2012 13:03

Unimaginative

The best thing you can do for your DD is model a feminist, egalitarian household. She should see you cleaning, cooking, and doing lots of nurturing things, as well as spending time with you building and climbing and talking about how she's going to be president of Mars one day. If you treat your wife like an equal in all regards, listen to her talk and truly model real respect, you will be giving your DD a priceless gift in that she will set her own standards high in her later relationships. She won't settle for a bellend, she'll be looking for a man as good as her dad. (Or woman, obv.)

At 3 I think peer pressure is really starting to kick in. I remember telling my mother I wanted to be a nurse because my BEST FRIEND EMMA had told me that was her dream at playschool that morning. If my mother thought Hmm she didn't show it! And when one of my other friends told my mother that she wasn't going to have a career, she was going to be a housewife and raise children, my own housewife mother said under no circumstances was she to waste her chances, or something equally doom-ridden. Said friend is now v.important lawyer....

What I'm rambling about is this: the patriarchy surrounds your DD and pushes in on her in a hundred ways, from the pressure to 'be a princess' to the pressure that 'boys are better than girls,' and what you need to do is give her the tools to push back. "Colours are for everyone " is fine, as is "shopping is no or less more important than watching football'', but mainly, she can be who she is. She won't know for ages what she really likes vs what everyone else likes and she is 'sold' by various forces, so just do a lot of accepting for now. I think most girls who are given heaps of alternative, positive role models end up thinking of pink and princesses as rather babyish by the time they're 6 or 7.

Finally, of course, she might well be a pink-loving, glitter-loving, shopping loving astronaut. I agree with you that taking one aspect or thing that is fun (sparkles!) and making it an identity is problematic and limiting, but your job is not to take away the tat lovely sparkles, your job is to keep on selling the alternatives while not denigrating the sparkles as 'girlie' and therefore somehow lesser.

Argh, I hope that makes sense!

SweetGrapes · 27/03/2012 13:13

Haven't read the whole thread so apologise if it's all been covered/you've moved on.

The dressing up is ok in itself. So is pink and glitter. Nothing wrong with it. It's all the rest of the outside world teling her thats all she can be/do - that's what's wrong.
So do let her play with whatever she wants, do give her toys that are pink and toys that aren't pink - just make sure they are all interesting to her. Colour doesn't matter. Do take an interest in her school work - make sure she learns maths as she grows older - don't let her learn that girls don't do maths.
Make sure she meets people who are in diverse jobs and make sure lots of them are women. (A lot of girls don't opt for good careers because they never knew what was out there.)

Treat her mum/women in her life/grandma as you want your dd's partner to treat her - with love, respect and as an equal. Your treatment of women is always going to be her benchmark for other men when she grows up. I think this one is probably the most important.

SweetGrapes · 27/03/2012 13:20

And about the washing machine - if she sees you doing the washing regularly - that's enough. They can put 'girls only' all they want on it - she will always know otherwise.

Lead by example and all will be well... Smile

Portofino · 27/03/2012 13:20

Women do 60% of the world's work, own 10% of the land, and 1% of the money. Even in the UK women have always worked, OP. My ancestors did manual labour whilst raising large familes.

hugeheadofhair · 27/03/2012 13:54

Lovely post blackcurrant

TheFoosa · 27/03/2012 13:54

all you can do for your children (imo) is to give them the confidence to be themselves

Nyac · 27/03/2012 15:04

Men are able to treat women as an inferior class UD because of the violence that they are prepared to use against us: rape, sexual assault, prostitution, pornography, domestic violence, murder, gynocide. The root problem isn't the division of labour, it's male oppression of women maintained through violence. All oppressive systems have violence at their foundation. If the violence stops men would have no control of women whatsoever.

You've studiously ignored my comments about pornography, which I think is an excellent litmus test of men's commitment to female equality and liberation. Well that and BDSM. What do you think of my idea that every father should make a vow never to use porn?

Agree Chubfuddler that it's unpleasant to have a man lecturing us on how to be feminists, which suggests to me he doesn't have much respect for women, whatever he's claiming.

Nyac · 27/03/2012 15:05

In a world where women were liberated and free it wouldn't matter if little girls liked pink and sparkles. The problem with them at the moment is that they are used to mark out little girls as inferior to males.

AliceHurled · 27/03/2012 15:34

The lack of respect for women is precisely why I asked the question I did way back, which wasn't answered. The connection was made between the problem and its perpetuation by women, seemingly because a couple of women had done things seen to contribute to the problem, which was then conflated to 'women doing this'. If you see women as fully human and equal OP you wouldn't make sweeping statements about women doing things, because you'd see them as people.

I hope you are genuinely listening OP and genuinely thinking about the points more generally about your relationship with women. Cos that rang my alarm bell.

Nyac · 27/03/2012 15:37

Yes "why can't a woman be more like a man?" isn't feminism or good for little girls.

tethersend · 27/03/2012 16:27

"In a world where women were liberated and free it wouldn't matter if little girls liked pink and sparkles. The problem with them at the moment is that they are used to mark out little girls as inferior to males."

Agreed, Nyac- but by eschewing and denigrating pink and sparkles, we are reinforcing their status as signifiers of inferiority.

It is only by allowing boys to like pink and sparkles that the signified will change.

TheRhubarb · 27/03/2012 16:28

I see now that lots of posters have given him pro-active things to do himself to change the situation rather just theorise about how the world should be, the OP has buggered off!

I agree with all that has been said. You need to set an example OP by not ever viewing pornography that dehumanises women to a submissive sexual plaything (i.e. all of it), by doing an equal amount of housework and being unafraid to take on 'female' roles.

Blu · 27/03/2012 17:00

He's been back 3 times today. Not everyone can hang over a computer all day. Why so hostile, TheRhubarb?

I'm just reading the 'wussy women' thread.
If I was a father with a dd I would talk to her 'straight' - not in an exaggerated babyish way. I would let her see me treat women as equals, I would not let her see me expect to 'baby' women or respond to silly babyish simpering appeals. I would play with her on her terms, whether that be playing house and baby dolls, or lego, or with Sylvanian Families or building a den. i.e let her see Daddy do all games, not just gender stereotyped games.

I am a mother of a boy - I have allowed myself to become an expert (ish) on Decepticons, and FIFA12 on the PS3. As well as taught him to cook and build a fire.

WidowWadman · 27/03/2012 18:35

'kin hell. There's a dad asking about how to handle pink sparkles in a 3 year old, and in less than 4 pages we're back on BDSM and porn?

Confused