Unhappy dad seeking feminist advice

[UnimaginitiveDadThemedUsername]

"We're princesses. We like dressing up and shopping."

Had a friend's daughter stay over this Saturday with our DD (both 3 1/2), and this is what we heard for most of the day from the two of them. This is pretty much the straw that is breaking the camel's back (even more so than the pink toy washing machine given to us by my mother-in-law when I wasn't there).

My question is this - how hard am I going to have to fight so DD grows up to realise that she is a person in her own right and not someone else's chattel or arm candy? I'm wondering if it's a lost cause.
Ironically, I feel that my efforts are and will continue to be sabotaged by women who know nothing else (see washing machine incident above). I mention stuff in a non-confrontational way to female members of the family and feel like they don't take me seriously.

Any practical suggestions? Or should I stop worrying?

Things are connected WW.

Well, quite. Still, I think in the context of this thread it's not helpful. Also I wonder if a female poster would have been met with the same hostility and recommendation not to use porn.

I mean, we don't even know whether he does use porn, in the first place.

There was a lot of constructive advice on this thread, and the discussion whether pink and sparkly is being rejected because it's seen as inferior because it's a token of femininity is interesting and valid. But is there really the need to de-rail it into the porn and BDSM discussion, and quite aggressively so?

I think the porn question was a valid one in the context of this thread.

Because they're connected WW.

Why are you derailing it with a discussion of what is and isn't allowed on a thread?

I think it is absolutely spot on in the context of the thread.

The OP essentially is asking how he can help his DD to not be disadvantaged by the fact that she is female. He's focused on the pink stuff as one of the variables which may lead to disadvantage for her. Lots of posters are saying that although the pink stuff may be a variable, there are other more important variables which can offset the systemic disadvantage females experience. One of the most important of these, is the message they get from the first male they ever experience, their father-figure, about how he views women. All the theoretical egalitarianism in the world, won't make a blind bit of difference to his DD's sense of self-worth and self-esteem, if in practice, her father doesn't respect women as much as he does men.

The porn stuff etc. may seem to be a million miles away from My Little Pony, but it essentially deals with the question - how can the OP try and offset the disadvantage patriarchy imposes on his DD because of her sex and ensure that she can reach her full potential? One of those ways, is for her to know that ALL women are humans, not just her, her mum, her granny and the women the family are actually acquainted with. How her father treats and sees women therefore, is absolutely crucial and given that porn is so ubiquitous, I think it's not an invalid topic to raise.

'I think the porn question was a valid one in the context of this thread.'

Only because the OP was male. Had the OP been female the porn question wouldn't have arisen would it?

Congratulations on managing to shoehorn porn and BDSM into this thread anyway.

Well women aren't part of male supremacy, men are. So they need to be actively working against it. It's not unreasonable to ask him too. He's worried about his daughter - the finest thing a father can do for his daughter is to commit not to be a misogynist and to fight against misogyny.

Well no, it wouldn't.

Do you actually believe that you've made some kind of brilliantly incisive point there?

Oh for goodness sake yes if all you do all day every day is tell your daughter that her role in life is to be a pretty fluffy pink princess there to look pretty be quiet and run about after men you are doing her a dis-service - our job as parents IMO is to give our children options and the ability to make sensible well considered decisions. However do I think allowing her to pretend she is a princess now and then - hell even all the time if it's what she wants is going to do her lasting damage - no. I was a girly girl - still am if truth be told. Love to bake and was THRILLED when dh bought me a bright pink Kitchenaid for my birthday. Can't wait to ake cupcakes with my little girl, just like I would with a boy.But I am not chained to the kitchen sink like a good little woman. My DH and I share household jobs - there are no 'his' jobs and 'her' jobs - well except baking dh is awful! Lol. I am also personally offended by the suggestion that by being a "homemaker" I would be making less of a contribution than a woman who is working. I currently work but as much as I love my job if we could afford it I would LOVE to stay home and look after my family. And if my DD came to me and told me that's what she truly wanted then I would not feel like I had failed her as long as she was happy.

'Scuse me Sigmund, but the OP was asking for ideas on how to minimise the impact of sexist stereotyping on his daughter. Amongst my suggestions was that he "walk the walk" and not just "talk the talk" - to reflect non sexist values in every day life. That means choosing not to perpetuate or collude with the oppression of women. Going along with sexist comments and behaviour and consuming porn do that.

Sorry cross posted with Nyac.

The porn issue wasn't shoe-horned. Any more than the housework one was.

Porn, housework, sex, money, work - all these things are affected by and affect, how men and women treat each other and in turn affect what children learn about relationships between men and women and what they can reasonably expect from their relationships, their domestic arrangements and their work and social lives.

It's really not rocket science.

What gave you the impression that he was an avid porn watcher anyway?

'Well women aren't part of male supremacy, men are. So they need to be actively working against it. It's not unreasonable to ask him too. He's worried about his daughter - the finest thing a father can do for his daughter is to commit not to be a misogynist and to fight against misogyny.'

It's unreasonable to ask him to in the context of this thread. He asks how he can help his daughter avoid gender stereotyping. You ask him if he has a wank/porn habit. And you think this is useful how?

No one has said he is an avid porn watcher.

They've asked him he hasn't answered.

If you don't understand why it's relevant in the context of the thread after all the explanations you've been given, it's nobody else's job to keep patiently explain it to you. You'll just have to accept your F for now and decide to revise harder next time.

You see, he has now been attacked and had the porn BDSM agenda foisted upon him unwarranted. Do you really think that this man is now going to see feminism in a positive light? Do you think you have helped at all. I can tell you, you haven't.

He hasn't been attacked.

He's been asked a question which he hasn't answered.

And yes, many men are put off feminism, when they find it entails considering women to be as human as men.

But many aren't, because they already do.

It's not for you to decide that the OP is a monster who sees women as sub-humans. It's very bad form for you to attack him in this way, I don't know why you're assuming such a thing about him.

I don't think anybody has said he's a porn watcher. The point is to get him to widen his understanding of sexism and misogyny so he can see the problem doesn't stop at his dd wearing pink and doing a bit of dressing up, or even women getting into "men's" jobs, but is fundamentally a problem of male behaviour and attitudes. Which need to change.

Basil nah, I'll happily stay an F-grade feminist, I prefer my world to be not black and white and full of pigeon holes :)

OK. You post a thread about a concern for your DC. You are asked whether you get off to porn. And you think he should respond to that? I wouldn't respond to that. Would you? Considering the fact that it's his first post.

I wasn't addressing you WW, but if you self-declare as an F grade feminist, it's not for me to contradict your own view of yourself.

Also I said that BDSM and porn are a litmus test of men's commitment to women's equality and liberation. UD hasn't decided whether he wants to take it yet or not. It's quite possible he'd pass.

The only advice I would have is to not bother with sleep overs for 3 year olds...

But you're assuming he's thick SF, and doesn't understand the connections.

Why?

He may be, but he may be a perfectly intelligent person who understands exactly what people are getting at and is thinking about it.

Geez, Sig and Widow, bit of jumping to conclusions there. Why should asking a man not to consume porn automatically make him reject feminism? If he's chosen not to use porn because he's loyal to his humanity over his manhood, he won't be offended in the slightest. If he does use it and is genuinely trying to raise his daughter in a non-sexist way, he probably needs to think about the hypocrisy here.

You insisted he tell you whether he was a porn watcher. You repeatedly asked him if he was a porn watcher. You were aggrieved when he wouldn't tell you whether he was a porn watcher. What on earth gives you the right to question someone like this, to insist they discuss their private life with you, a person they don't know and have never spoken to before.