Unhappy dad seeking feminist advice

[UnimaginitiveDadThemedUsername]

"We're princesses. We like dressing up and shopping."

Had a friend's daughter stay over this Saturday with our DD (both 3 1/2), and this is what we heard for most of the day from the two of them. This is pretty much the straw that is breaking the camel's back (even more so than the pink toy washing machine given to us by my mother-in-law when I wasn't there).

My question is this - how hard am I going to have to fight so DD grows up to realise that she is a person in her own right and not someone else's chattel or arm candy? I'm wondering if it's a lost cause.
Ironically, I feel that my efforts are and will continue to be sabotaged by women who know nothing else (see washing machine incident above). I mention stuff in a non-confrontational way to female members of the family and feel like they don't take me seriously.

Any practical suggestions? Or should I stop worrying?

I think the assumption that he must be a porn watcher, just because he is a man is pretty sexist.

I'm not surprised he didn't respond to these questions and hasn't returned to the thread and I don't think it gives any indication about what he does or doesn't watch.

Who is the "you" here?

A couple of posters asked him if he watched porn.

No-one's insisted on him answering anything. How can they? This is Mumsnet, not the Levenson enquiry.

'Geez, Sig and Widow, bit of jumping to conclusions there. Why should asking a man not to consume porn automatically make him reject feminism? If he's chosen not to use porn because he's loyal to his humanity over his manhood, he won't be offended in the slightest. If he does use it and is genuinely trying to raise his daughter in a non-sexist way, he probably needs to think about the hypocrisy here.'

Because it had absolutely nothing to do with what he was asking. He was asking how to help his daughter avoid gender stereotypes and your answer was to suggest he didn't wank off to porn. You really can't see how that might be just a little bit unhelpful? Or off topic? At all?

OP, I had a feminist dad (he didn't know it, but he was - so is my mum) and it was one of the best things that happened to me, ever. My siblings and I are all girls, but in all my years growing up I never once heard 'you're a girl, so...'. We just were. Children just imbibe this stuff.

I say 'had' because since I've become an adult it's become clear that he does have some less-than-feminist views. I don't know if he's changed, or if he just hid it for the benefit of his daughters, but I'll always love him for doing it; by the time the less-than-feminist stuff came along we were out of our teens and thoroughly conditioned in equality. The feminist damage was done!

My sister is not at all a self-identified feminist - she would probably reject it, actually. But she is one.

It really is important to walk the walk.

As has been explained, some posters think it has everything to do with what he is asking. It has also been explained why it has everything to do with it.

Oh yes, and completely agree with those posters who have raised the subject of porn. Porn is everywhere - children are going to imbibe their values from their parents' reaction.

Again, I remember eavesdropping on an adult conversation about strip clubs - the adults probably didn't even know I was there. My dad was the only one adamant that he had never been in one and never would. He clearly wanted to save face and made up some guff about the price of beer being too high (it wasn't until I was older that I understood that), but the ten year old VictorG was left in no doubt that these were not places that nice, decent men go to.

It took until I was a little older for me to work out why, but it's these little moments that are so important.

Nobody insisted he tell us whether he's a porn user or not. I actually asked him what he thought of the idea of fathers committing not to use porn - not a direct personal question.

I think he's got a long way to go to understand what things are like for women and what they will be like for his daughter if men don't change, when he's saying stuff like this:

"the traditional structure (which I don't think is necessarily to mens' advantage) still exists"

It's a great privilege to be able ignore oppressive structures that benefit one's own sex and pretend there is nothing to them. Most men fight very hard against the idea that patriarchy benefits them, and it appears that UD is one of those number.

If you read the OP he doesn't refer to gender stereotyping, his question is broader.

If you read the title, he is asking for feminist input.

So if he is put off by some feminists engaging in a bit of feminist analysis of his situation then he wasn't particularly interested or committed in the first place, was he.

If feminism has to be depoliticised to the extent that feminists responding to someone asking for feminist input can't mention a central pillar of feminism, it sounds pretty pointless to me. I might go over to a socialist forum ask for socialist input and see if anyone takes umbrage if class is mentioned.

'Most men fight very hard against the idea that patriarchy benefits them, and it appears that UD is one of those number.'

And yet you still gave him a hard time.

Is it wrong to give a member of a privileged group a "hard time" because he appears not to recognise that he benefits from his privilege?

I'd question the idea that he's being given a hard time. He's being given some very sincere, thoughtful analysis and ideas.

I've been offering him non-sugar coated feminist analysis. Sorry it offends you SF. Well I'm not really.

Are we back to this idea that we mustn't speak plainly to men in case we put them off feminism ?

If the OP is the man he thinks he is, he will get it

Yes, if we tell men we're humans, they'll hate us apparently.

Oh well.

'I've been offering him non-sugar coated feminist analysis. Sorry it offends you SF. Well I'm not really.'

You were rude and pried into his private life unasked. You don't offend me Nyac, so being unapologetic for it is unneccessary.

No, I'm all for you speaking plainly to men AF. Putting them off feminism concerns me not one jot.

I was coming at it from the angle that you seem to want men to embrace feminism, but then do nothing to encourage it.

As a visibly white person, I ask for the views of people of colour on an issue related to racism, then get huffy when they ask me about the things I do that might perpetuate racism, well, then my heart isn't really in it. Same applies here. Gotta take the crunchy with the smooth if you are genuine.

Seems to me that there are posters on this thread that just wanted to have a go at UD only because he was a bloke. He is a parent asking a question about his 3.5 yr old DD. A question about pinkification that is debated often by women on MN and yet it had to turn into a discussion about whether he was a misogynist.

UD - if you are still there I am a bloke and I don't have a DD but two DSs. Its just as bad the other way. DS won't wear pink at all in case his male friends see him. He is age 12 and all I can do is be an example, talk, give DS confidence to be himself. Same as you and your DD.

I have got DS doing a bit of cooking with me recently - now he can safely reach the cooker top - and he cleans his room. Its nothing special but just a thing we enjoy doing together and a bit of gentle below the radar nudge that blokes to do housework as well.

You don't mention a wife or partner. She can play her part too. I notice the pinkification of girls and it seems to me that a lot of girls take a lot of their cues from mothers on the importance of 'looking nice'. Treat your wife as you would want a bloke to treat your DD when she gets older.

Just a few random thoughts. Don't sweat it but keep hammering a way one tiny chip at a time and hopefully our children will turn out OK.

I remember resisting for ages on the acquisition of Barbies. In the end a friend gave my DD a big tin full of them, and my heart sank. She loved them though, and played shopping and Barbie for a few years..

These days DD is doing history at Uni and is loving her feminism and propaganda modules the most.

I think it's great the OP is thinking about this stuff and caring enough to try and make a difference in his daughter's life now.
I'm sure she will grow up balanced and hopefully appreciative of her lovely feminist dad.
Well done OP

'As a visibly white person, I ask for the views of people of colour on an issue related to racism, then get huffy when they ask me about the things I do that might perpetuate racism, well, then my heart isn't really in it. Same applies here. Gotta take the crunchy with the smooth if you are genuine.'

Really? So for a man to embrace feminism he has to offer personal information about his masturbating habits to someone he doesn't know? And if he doesn't want to discuss this with you then he isn't genuinely interested in feminism?

If someone you didn't know asked you what you thought about whilst masturbating, and insisted that to have a genuine interest in whatever, you had to answer this specific question (bearing in mind, this is a random stranger on the internet), you would be OK with that?

I wasn't rude to him SF. Once again non sugarcoated feminist analysis isn't rudeness. We're in the feminist section, it would probably help to learn the difference, or you're going to be constantly taking offense on behalf of other people.

Nobody asked this guy about his masturbating habits. Read the thread again.

Why are you so touchy about this by the way? You seem to be taking this a bit personally SF.

That is a personal question, in case you're struggling to see the difference.

OP - Iwouldn't worry as much as you seem to be. When dd was about 3 I was in a toy shop with her and asked her chose anything she wished. She chose a Barbie.
She's 12 now and is incredibly self-assured and no girly-girl, as she describes some of her school mates.
As for the masturbation/porn questioning, just agree. Will save you an awful lot of pointless bother. hth

The overall effect comes from seeing you behaving in a good way, not what she wears/colour choices, esp. as she gets a bit older and starts drawing conclusions for herself.

My father probably doesn't identify as a feminist but was by far the most powerful influence on me growing up to think I could conquer the world. I have absolutely no idea what his views are on pornography, it is very far beyond the sort of conversation he would feel comfortable having with me (or probably anyone else for that matter, although I know from my mother that they haven't had sex for decades).

Whilst I agree that how you model behaviour is probably the most important thing to help our children see that the message they are being fed by the outside world is not necessarily real or true (some of the opinions my children came back from nursery with were really odd considering that they had a working mum and a SAHD) I really really don't think that majoring in on porn is that relevant when talking about parenting a 3 year old. If she was aware that her father was watching porn I don't think it is primarily misogyny we would be concerned about, but bad parenting on the neglect/abuse spectrum.

My experience was that the pink stuff was given to dd by women too, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with combating it because although pink and sparkly is in theory as good a choice as any other colour and style it often comes packaged with all sort of other limiting crap that has nothing to do with expressing little girls individual personality or potential.