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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Agenda, much?

999 replies

Malificence · 03/03/2012 17:47

I don't usually wander onto the MN facebook page but I was pretty horrified to find what looks very much like an MRA agenda posted on there.
I'm trying very hard to see what relevance the photo used for their site has regarding the voices of unheard children. Hmm Looks more like how they would like to see their women to me.

www.facebook.com/#!/mumsnet?sk=wall

OP posts:
FrothyDragon · 07/03/2012 12:08

Have you not heard the story of the three billy goats gruff? Best way to find out if someone's a troll is to send a goat over their way...

And Sinical, I suppose you're right... But as long as it did?

Nyac · 07/03/2012 12:09

I think Mumsnet decided that maybe giving free rein to the invasion wasn't such a good idea when "ordinary" Mumsnetters got outraged, not just the usual feminists.

Sorry for the "conspiracy" theory - or maybe it's just pointing out an attitude that already exists.

Misogyny silences women Justine, a lot of women can't deal with it robustly. It's why for example the Guardian's CIF is overrrun by woman-haters whilst hardly any women post there or if they do they are the types who suck up to the misogynists. It actually takes quite a lot to challenge woman-hatred. Woman haters know that which is why they like throwing their weight around.

NarkedPuffin · 07/03/2012 12:16

I'm not into conspiracy theories but I do wonder if part of the problem last night was that the thread was in this section and the complaints from MNers were of misogyny. The whole 'section to dicuss feminism not feminist section' thing may have contributed to the way the deletions were handled.

FirstLastEverything · 07/03/2012 12:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JustineMumsnet · 07/03/2012 12:32

@Nyac

I guess people who don't like black people, or who don't like gay people, or who don't like jews, or who don't lesbians or who don't like disabled people are also welcome to come on over and promote their agenda.

Maybe we could see if there's a group of Holocaust deniers who could take up residence and then who we can deal with robustly.

Yes well as said previously I was trying to make a subtle (possibly to too subtle point) that you don't have to be a particular type to post here but, hey ho, let's invoke Godwin's law...

Prolesworth · 07/03/2012 12:34

There's nothing 'subtle' about making the obvious point that you can't do some kind of ideological screening of people before they're allowed to post here. What you could do is deal with misogyny and trolling when it's staring you in the face.

JustineMumsnet · 07/03/2012 12:36

@FirstLastEverything

"We don't only allow posts from people who "like" women". Maybe not, but don't you want to encourage posts from people who do? I am Shock at this.

I would also like to emphasise the point others have made, that on other sites joining purely to post about one issue, on one board, counts as trolling. Possibly a need for a 24 hour time lapse between registering and posting?

Loads of folk join to post about one issue - you don't know that that's all they'll end up posting about until you give them a bit of time. Tbh I think it would be a mistake to ask folk who eg needed immediate help with something like sleep, their relationship, or even dv to wait 24 hours.

JustineMumsnet · 07/03/2012 12:38

@NarkedPuffin

True. Maybe just the message then, without locking it.

Yes I think this is a good plan.

Nyac · 07/03/2012 12:41

It's pretty obvious that there's a great diversity of Mumsnetters and views we all hold Justine. But the point is we are all Mumsnetters. You're saying that people from other websites, with agendas to promote (and really, once again F4J? Welcome here? It's almost unbelievable) are welcome to come along in invading parties and take potshots at the members. And we can just be sitting ducks for them, or in fact have our posts deleted if we object, and be on the receiving end of finger wagging from moderators to keep us in line.

Meanwhile the invaders can go back to their websites after they've caused a ruckus here, unimpeded and undisturbed because we're not invading them.

I think Mumsnet policy needs to be that if you know of an invasion being planned or that is clearly what is happening, then the people doing it get deleted. They aren't coming to take part in Mumsent, they don't have respect for it or the other posters, they're just coming to promote an agenda and disrupt.

Nyac · 07/03/2012 12:45

Also that isn't Godwins the point about Holocaust Deniers.

Holocaust deniers pretend they aren't anti-semitic.

Likewise domestic Violence and rape deniers claim they aren't migoynists. Misogyny actually does cause the death and destruction of millions of girls and women across the world. There is a genocide of women in India and China, greater even than the Holocaust.

Those two hatreds are of equal severity.

LeBOF · 07/03/2012 12:45

"I think Mumsnet policy needs to be that if you know of an invasion being planned or that is clearly what is happening, then the people doing it get deleted. They aren't coming to take part in Mumsent, they don't have respect for it or the other posters, they're just coming to promote an agenda and disrupt."

I agree with this.

AliceHurled · 07/03/2012 12:56

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

nenevomito · 07/03/2012 12:57

agree with the above too.

Its not debate to allow invasions.

LeBOF · 07/03/2012 12:57

Doesn't work like that, Alice. They use a complicated computer algorithm to ensure that if you are a bit feministy, you have to take all sorts

LeBOF · 07/03/2012 12:59

of crap, but you need to be super-polite to Gandhi levels to anyone else.

HTH.

YuleingFanjo · 07/03/2012 13:12

of course a planned invasion is trolling!

FirstLastEverything · 07/03/2012 13:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

nenevomito · 07/03/2012 13:23

I'm not a huge poster on the FWR board, but it does seem to me that the default position is to allow attacks on the feminist section / posters to stand in the name of 'debate'.

I find the board hard work as there are always a handful of blooming obvious trolls on here just to stir. The pattern is that they come and stir and then go and post a whining "AIBU" about feminists or the FWR board which then gets people jumping on the bandwagon about how someone once said something mean to them and therefore they feel the need to brand the whole section and the posters therein as being mean too.

Its got to the stage where I can pick out who is going to start the next "Feminists are a bunch of meanies" thread and then NAME who will jump in and pretty much outline what they will say. Thats not debate or interest, its boring predictable bollocks, which is annoying enough, but when you add in what happens during invasions it doesn't paint an attractive picture of the underlying attitudes to feminism on this website.

The internet, like real life, is full of blatant or subtle misogyny. It would be good if Mumsnet could be one of the places where the rights of women really are put first. Even from a business point of view, it doesn't do to fail in your support of the people who are most likely to buy into the Mumsnet brand, rather that use it to cause trouble or push their own agenda.

TunipTheVegemal · 07/03/2012 13:29

Lots of boards go into lockdown when a troll invasion starts and suspend new registrations.

The point I am making here is that discussion spaces on the rest of the internet are in general protected much more carefully in order to allow the conversation to flow in a way that members of the site find productive.

Mumsnet does have free speech at the core of its philosophy and I appreciate that, but the corollary is that you are offering its members little protection against attacks compared with the protection that members of other sites (including those who attack Mumsnet, ironically) accord themselves. I'm not talking about not wanting to be disagreed with here, or not wanting to have false statements corrected - I can quite see that if someone says Mr Sayer Of Scary Things About Harriet Harman had a criminal record which he did not in fact have, he has the right to have that removed. (Incidentally, there is no reason why you should have to be a member to get the post pulled - you could have a report form somewhere on the site to make it easier for non-members to report and for you to find the post they mean.) What I am talking about is the aggression and yes, misogyny that many single-issue posters bring in with them.

Mumsnet is less moderated than many other sites and I would submit that one reason for that (despite nests of vipers comparisons) is that it CAN be, because the general style of posting on here is in fact less aggressive and less personal than that in the rest of the male-dominated internet. It comes as a shock to me when I go to certain other sites just how rude posters are to each other and how little policing by other members there is of racism, sexism, homophobia etc. (We might be more direct than NetHuns but we are a hell of a lot more civilised than CommentIsFree, for instance). The problem is that when you get a load of invaders coming in they often bring with them standards of behaviour where it is ok to call a poster a manhater or a bully or accuse them of not being able to get a man, or going on about women being liars. For posters here who have experienced that kind of misogyny in real life it is pretty nasty to have it popping up in this space and we then get quite upset when MNHQ doesn't step in to delete the offending posts pronto - and as you say it takes time for you to do this especially for a full-on board invasion where not only are there loads of these posts from them, we start trying to give as good as we get so then you have to delete some of us too to be fair. And then they start complaining about censorship when actually they've been deleted for a bog standard personal attack.

So don't you think that one thing you should be doing is to make it clearer to new members that Mumsnet actually IS different from the rest of the internet and bog standard misogynistic insults (of the Miss Piggy/manhater/princess/bitter/can't get a man/lying bitch variety) are not welcome on here EVEN when they don't fall foul of your current narrow technical definition of a personal attack (eg when they aim them at a bunch of us rather than an individual)? In other words, have more of an overarching statement about misogyny? (though you might need to use a shorter word for the ones that don't really understand what it means Wink)?

Sorry about the essay - to summarise:

  1. Mumsnet is different from the rest of the internet. It is not misogynist. This is what makes it good and enables the free speech to exist.
  2. Many board invaders don't realise that because it is generally unspoken.
  3. It needs to be made explicit and then it will either make them behave better (hopeless optimist emoticon) or make it quicker and easier to get rid of them.

Thanks for listening Justine. I do appreciate your replying to my previous message despite my losing my temper Blush

Malificence · 07/03/2012 13:46

This is really unbelieveable Sad
The F4J bunch must be laughing up their sleeves.

OP posts:
NarkedPuffin · 07/03/2012 13:54

I don't always agree with MNHQ or how they choose to handle things, but it can't be easy to try to moderate lightly when your board is a target for certain groups. They have admitted they screwed up last night.

MNHQ's recycling box

edam · 07/03/2012 13:55

I think Mumsnet gets this one wrong a lot of the time. It ends up with a double standard, where members are deleted for daring to defend themselves or point out the aggressive agenda that some organisations pursue. Meanwhile those organisations, who join purely to shut down debate or attack MNers, have their posts allowed to stand.

MNHQ should be looking at the broader context, asking 'is this an organised invasion/a group seeking to push a political agenda' and also 'are the posts they are asking us to delete problematic in any way?' At the moment if feels like HQ are trigger happy, deleting any old post and multiple posts some aggressive outsider demands, while protecting posts that attack MNers and women. That silences MNers and prevents an honest debate.

If this was about racism, not feminism, my bet is MN would take a very different line. Somehow hatred of women and aggression towards women is not taken half as seriously.

NormaStanleyFletcher · 07/03/2012 13:57

Tunip - I really like that idea. Could it work? It would be a policy change in the posting guidelines. Could it be defined without putting off/affecting other genuine MNers who are coming here to learn, who may inadvertantly post something (that more experienced feminists find distasteful), because of the societal view that they have been brought up with??

runningforthebusinheels · 07/03/2012 14:01

I'm just Shock at this whole thread.

MNHQ - if you now say you know MN was invaded, and invading is trolling, have the obvious trolls been barred from posting now? If so, why do their posts still stand? I'm thinking spydiii and smyley here.

solidgoldbrass · 07/03/2012 14:07

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