"Miss goes missing on French official forms" - let's do the same here!

[Alittlefeminist]

Hurray for French feminists who have pushed through a revision of women's titles: www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/22/mademoiselle-removed-from-french-official-forms :)

Let's do the same!

Ok, for all the 'down with the nazi feminists' bragade -- how about it if the nazi feminists admit you do in fact have the right to be wrong?

Odd how this has changed into a debate about marital status.

Because that's the one thing that Madame/Mademoiselle is not about - it's about AGE, either actual age or perceived age.

And it's a bloody minefield. You can address a 25yo Frenchwoman as one or other and the potential for causing massive offence is equal either way.

Rhino - yup, I would not wear one if dh didn't. If he couldn't for practical work reasons (and let's be honest, there are only a few people who really can't wear one for that reason) then I would expect him to wear one when not at work.

But like I said, I don't care for other people. As long as the man and woman have similar choices, I don't care what those choices are. If I have a dd who wants to be a nurse, a traditionally female role, that's fine. As long as (this currently fictional) dd knows she can also choose to be something else. The specific choice being made is not a problem for me as long as that choice is not limited by gender.

Rhinos - if you only spoke a language that doesn't have titles that signify marital status, would you also feel the same way?

Thinking along those lines MaryZ nothing will ever change. There will always be people who dislike change - soime of them older, some of them younger.

I expect that's why there's still people spouting racist bullshit and it being blamed "on their age" (Load of old bollocks, I know plenty of non racist 80 year olds).

Rhino- does it not bother you that dh can't present himself to the world as married?

I notice no one is actually acknowledging that the way me. And women are treated, and the choices we are given, are intrinsically different.

RhinosDontEatPancakes wrote - "by removing my right to call myself Mrs you'd be taking away my right to make my life journey and achievements part of my name, title and how i choose to present myself to the world."

Are the bank, electricity or phone company interested in your life journey?

I am not sure why people are so up in arms about being asked what title they use - for example on forms (to buy paperclips, or whatever). Given the fact that there are so many different titles people can and do prefer to use, surely asking your title on a form is not about finding out whether or not you are married - all it is doing is making sure that any correspondance etc is addressed to you by the title you prefer.

I'd rather be asked what title I prefer, so I can state my preference for Mrs, than have someone assume I am a Ms. And given the strength of feeling on here from the people who do wish to be called Ms, then surely it's better to check what title you prefer, and use the right one, than to make an assumption and offend you?

Of course, in the ideal world that some people want, Ms would be the only option, so it would not be neccessary to ask what title you want to use. Unless you had a doctorate. Or had been ennobled/held a hereditary title. Or were an ordained minister of the church. I am assuming you have no objection to people using these titles? It's just my freedom of choice you want to restrict.

Married did actually mean a woman had made it in bygone years, Maryz. Being an old maid was a fate worse than death for people who didn't come from money and couldn't be nurses or teachers. A lot of old maids ended up in service. Even in my mother's day growing up in Ireland, marriage was the aim of women of her generation. Not necessarily because it would mean being supported all your life -- on a farm equipped with it own dairy and with pigs and chickens and the farmyard to take care of plus 7-10 children and all the cooking and cleaning and laundry too you would obv be working just as hard as 'himself', but because 'spinsters' were cruelly mocked and assumed to have something essential missing from their makeup.

My dad had some unmarried aunts. They were known as 'the aunties'. They lived on their parents' bequest to them (investments, property) because they could not work, having had the traditional education of young ladies of the late Victorian years -- i.e. a little arithmetic (enough to take care of household accounts), enough exposure to literature to be able to make polite dinner conversation and know what to read when they weren't supervising the servants or embroidering, just enough physical exercise to keep them from getting gout but not enough to strain their reproductive systems, French in order to keep up with fashion and thus make their husband look like a good provider, and piano lessons because you never knew when they might come in handy.

I don't like the way you're constantly saying that I'm removing people's CHOICES and FORCING them to do stuff either Mary. It's that kind of a thread.

and here's a face you seem to have dropped.

"You'd be surprised how many people DO object to the title Ms, Mary - believe me."

And why would you care Shirley? In any case it is their issue, not yours (or mine for that matter)

'RhinosDontEatPancakes wrote - "by removing my right to call myself Mrs you'd be taking away my right to make my life journey and achievements part of my name, title and how i choose to present myself to the world."

Are the bank, electricity or phone company interested in your life journey?'

That is kinda exactly the point. They are not. They are officially only interested in your marital status*. They do not care about the marital status of people known as Mr.

(*They haven't given it a second's thought. They are only reflecting the customs of society.)

MissWooWoo, what other reason could there possibly be to call yourself Mrs and Mrs?

It's quite unpleasant to have people be rude and ask personal questions when you're just trying to open a bank account actually bemy.

Dh used to wear a wedding ring - he doesn't now, because he broke that finger, and if the ring fitted over the knuckle, it would be far too loose, and if it fitted his finger, he wouldn't be able to get it on or off.

And he has said that he would happily change his title, to reflect the fact that he's married, if such an option existed.