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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Miss goes missing on French official forms" - let's do the same here!

429 replies

Alittlefeminist · 22/02/2012 17:09

Hurray for French feminists who have pushed through a revision of women's titles: www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/22/mademoiselle-removed-from-french-official-forms :)

Let's do the same!

OP posts:
Bue · 28/02/2012 17:27

Right, to all those in the "But I like being a Mrs!" camp, would you mind if all the rest of us (unmarried, married-but-different-surnames, etc.) used the title too?

In the state of Quebec, women have to make a specific application to change their names after marriage. It is not an automatic process - women HAVE to make an active decision to change their surname to that of their husband, like doing so by deed-poll in this country. The default position is that your maiden name remains your "legal" name regardless of marital status.

This isn't quite right. In fact women (and men) in Quebec are not allowed to change their names at all. A court application for name change based on marriage would be rejected. People may only change their name if it's deemed offensive or impossible to spell.

RhinosDontEatPancakes · 28/02/2012 17:34

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ShirleyO · 28/02/2012 17:35

I'm not getting cross at all Maryz Confused

I would prefer there to be no titles at all but moving over to a blanket Ms term for all women seems equitable to me as well.

JugglingWithTangentialOranges · 28/02/2012 17:43

Just to add that I've worked in schools and been Miss before being married and Mrs afterwards - and I didn't feel there was that much choice in it - though one colleague I worked with at one time did strike out for being "Ms"

  • I agree though there is a problem with the sound of the word and it not being often used in spoken language.
I'm up for all being Mrs as adult women (interesting this was the case historically) , and/or using and asking for titles less often generally.
Maryz · 28/02/2012 17:54

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mathanxiety · 28/02/2012 18:02

In Sweden in 1909 'The phrase "Swedish man" was removed from the application forms to public offices and women are thereby approved as applicants to most public professions'. Now isn't that interesting.

I think the theory behind a lot of property laws that denied the legal personhood of married women was that the married man and woman became one. Of course that one person was the man. All of that was gradually chipped away during the last 300 years with earth shattering breakthroughs like automatic legal majority granted to unmarried women over the age of majority in some places, legal majority granted to married women in others, the right to control your own earnings, the right to dispose of any property you brought into the marriage (in Britain outside of Scotland, the Married Women's Property Act of 1870 gave married women control over their own wages, investments and inheritances -- guess who enjoyed full rights over it all until then?), the right to guardianship of their own children.

Sometimes of course, progress was halting -- married Portuguese women were granted legal majority in 1911 but it was rescinded in 1933. In Spain they were only legal adults from 1931 to 1939. Too bad that thousands of women in both countries then reverted to the status of dependent in one fell swoop.

And further on the theme of old maids and the shame attached -- the number of nuns in Ireland increased x8 in the years 195- to 1900. These are out and out nuns I'm talking about, the ones with the starched wimples and habits, whose families paid a dowry in order to set them up as Brides of Christ. There were lay sisters in the convents too, but they were just skivvies to the Sisters and their uniforms included an apron. They were not dowried Brides, and they were treated like poop. Ireland was unique in Europe in that its pattern of emigration involved huge numbers of single women travelling alone (almost twice as many Irish women as Irish men in the 20th century); the Irish maid in America is caricatured in stories such as Amelia Bedelia. Late marriages out of economic desperation to men more than 20 years older than them accounted for 50% of Irish marriages in the early 20th century.

In Ireland in 1935, Section 16 of the Conditions of Employment Act allowed the Minister of Industry and Commerce to regulate the numbers of women employed in any given industry or field. Guess who got the shaft at a time of high unemployment? Any guesses what the rationale there might have been? Yes, that Mrs meant that married women were selfish to take a job from a man who might need it more than they did. The Civil Service marriage ban was only repealed in 1973. The introduction of free secondary school meant you could send the girls to school as well as the boys [hooray]. Actually, as recently again as some time during my childhood in Ireland, a married women couldn't open a bank account of her own. Whether married or unmarried, Miss or Mrs, a woman in Ireland until not that long ago was either a nuisance who needed to be married off or settled in some other way by her father, or a legal non-person who didn't have a right to deprive a man of a living.

Yes, having those titles in front of your name meant a lot Hmm. This is the history we celebrate when we choose Mrs or Miss.

When it comes to small gestures like the Miss/Mrs/Ms question, I think this reasoning applies:
'...slow, molecular changes in quantitative relations can at some point transform into decisive qualitative changes, so that the past does indeed look like another country. Historically, the midwife for these enormous transformations has been struggle and mobilisation. These struggles sometimes stop short and often simply force our rulers to reorder the manner of their rule, but they are nonetheless the decisive conjunctures on which historical changes pivot.'
Kieran Allen, Fianna Fail and Irish Labour.

mathanxiety · 28/02/2012 18:03

People of my mother's generation, and yours, put up with a lot, Maryz.

RhinosDontEatPancakes · 28/02/2012 18:11

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WhoKnowsWhereTheTimeGoes · 28/02/2012 18:25

I would prefer no titles at all, but many people find it rude to be addressed by the first name by cold callers, people who work in banks etc. I am quite happy to be addressed by my first name by anyone, but I have seen on other threads that a lot of people find it extremely rude.

So titles need to remain. In which case I would prefer to see a default title for all adult women. Feminism is about equal treatment for all, which is not the case while some members of society are routinely questioned about their marital status and some are not. I don't see why there shouldn't be an "other" option on forms so people can write Mrs or Miss if they feel strongly about it but I would like to see a move towards Ms as the default, both on forms and in spoken language.

TheOriginalSteamingNit · 28/02/2012 18:26

er, yeah, when I was a small child I saw the already dated and sexist vision by the Two Ronnies of what they thought might happen if the Women's Libbers took over the world.

Scary shit, man. When The Wind Blows taught me to fear nuclear armageddon, and the Two Ronnies gave me nightmares for months about big busty women being in charge of everything. Fucking visionary stuff!

babysaurus · 28/02/2012 18:27

Have been reading this with interest. I realise this is a naff thing to ask (so sorry!) but just posted the original Guardian link on FB and got a tongue in cheeky reply from my brother saying 'and who's in the kitchen when the women are filling out all these forms?' (Disclaimer, my brother is not some awful sexist - with 5 sisters he'd never get away with it, but he does like taking the piss!)

As brain dead and exhausted - blame pregnancy brain - can anyone witty come up with a good response?!

mathanxiety · 28/02/2012 18:33

Well if a black person wants to be called a nigger then fine and dandy, but I wouldn't do it. I don't care if it's a 'choice' or a term of endearment or hip. And I would object to being called a cracker, honky, whitey, or as mick or paddy, by anyone. I don't get ironic reclamation of terms that have been used during a time of oppression. I also don't get how using Mrs or Miss could be interpreted in any other way. I think it comes from ignorance of our history.

Apologies for bringing race into it again, but the struggle of black people for freedom has many parallels in the struggle for women's freedom. We need to be clear that 'women's rights' means 'women's freedom'.

RhinosDontEatPancakes · 28/02/2012 18:34

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RhinosDontEatPancakes · 28/02/2012 18:36

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babysaurus · 28/02/2012 18:38

Thanks Rhinos! Wink

mathanxiety · 28/02/2012 18:38

WhoKnows My dad used to address all women who looked as if they were out of school as 'ma'am' and all men who looked like school-leavers as 'sir'. My granny, his MIL, was always ma'am and my grandad was sir. Same for anyone he was talking to on the phone gas company, etc.

What is pregnancy brain?

mathanxiety · 28/02/2012 18:39

The race analogy is completely pertinent, Rhinos.

mathanxiety · 28/02/2012 18:40

Why is anyone cooking marigolds?

Pseudonymity · 28/02/2012 18:42

Oh please get rid of 'Miss', I am so sick of 'Is that Miss, Mrs or Ms?' it is humiliating.

Germany sets a good example, everyone has been 'Mrs' for years. I think we should go the same way. My understanding is that we should default to Mrs as it is the abbreviation of Mistress, equivalent to Mr abbreviation for Master. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

WhoKnowsWhereTheTimeGoes · 28/02/2012 18:48

You don't hear Sir and Ma'am very often nowadays! How would it work if you need to ask for someone on the phone though, that is the one I find awkward.

I would like to be able to ask for another woman on the phone without having to think about the fact that if I ask to speak to firstname surname I may cause offence, but if I pick the wrong title that might cause offence too. Whereas if I phone a man up I only have to decide between firstname and Mr and can just go for Mr to be on the safe side. So it is easier for me to phone men than women. Which is another reason why I find the whole Miss/Mrs/Ms thing annoying.

RhinosDontEatPancakes · 28/02/2012 18:49

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blobtobetter · 28/02/2012 19:00

I like being a Miss - would never use Ms. Just sounds weird to me.

mathanxiety · 28/02/2012 19:01

They were offensive because they denoted status, Rhinos, and that status was in the case of nigger, inferior, and in the case of Miss or Mrs, dependent and inferior because that was the assumption of the time.

In the American South you could be called 'nigger' as a title, or 'boy', with no reference expected or necessary to your actual name, or age (or marital status).

'Miss' denoted dependence. In some countries dependence and the inability to conduct your own affairs (as if you had limited intellectual capacity or were a child nowadays) remained a fact of your life until death. You could be disposed of as your guardian wished, married off, put in a convent, given an allowance, or not.

'Mrs' denoted you were legally a non-person with the same legal status and the same inability to conduct your own affairs as a child, a dependent, someone with limited intellectual capacity. You were, in many countries, essentially the property of your husband, who could therefore rape you if he so wished. Same went for female slaves...

RhinosDontEatPancakes · 28/02/2012 19:07

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BlingLoving · 28/02/2012 19:14

I'm starting to laugh now. Those of you who want to remain mrs, go ahead. As you refuse to even admit that there is a difference in how men and women are referenced its clear to me you are clearly never going to come close to seeing the reasoning behind one basic female honorific for all women who don't have some additional/alternative title that reflects their education/profession/other.

Many of us have husbands who would use the "married man" title if it existed. But it doesn't. And men certainly aren't out there campaigning for it. You know why? Because while they wouldn't mind using it if it existed, they see no additional benefit in using their married name either. It does not mean any of our husbands are sexist, but for me it demonstrates how far entrenched it is in women's psyches- they will fight tooth and nail to continue to be defined by marriage. Men just don't care.

Oh how men of even just 100 years ago must be laughing in their graves.