"Miss goes missing on French official forms" - let's do the same here!

[Alittlefeminist]

Hurray for French feminists who have pushed through a revision of women's titles: www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/22/mademoiselle-removed-from-french-official-forms :)

Let's do the same!

Excellent post by bling.

Good on the French!

My personal favourite solution would be 'Mr' for the menfolk and 'Mrs' for women; first names for everybody until they appear grown-up - which might vary from person to person.

A title that indicate whether a woman in married or not is just a nonsense now. It's of no consequence, so why bother giving it any significance??
And if there is one title for men, why have more than one for women?

That's my tuppence worth. As you were.

Not slaves necessarily, though in both cases the right to control of your own earnings was in the hands of someone else, depending on place, code, etc. Chattel definitely. Definitely not treated as legal adults. That is what 'legal majority' for married women meant in that link I posted above. The significance of little details like that is clearly not understood by some women.

As for "You cannot compare the N word to Mrs' -- I just have, and all you have as a counterargument is eyerolling, ridiculous reductio ad absurdum, and inability to come up with any cogent argument against my characterisation of the terms Miss and Mrs, aka refusal to engage.

And as BlingLoving said, 'men of even just 100 years ago must be laughing in their graves' at your spirited defence of your right to choose to be identified using a title that alerted others that your legal status was 'non-person', Rhinos.

I'm a Mrs. I like it. I know people who go by Ms. They like it. I don't know many who use Miss, but the ones who do, like it.

I don't see the problem. :)

That 'feminist boards' thing is a cop out Maryz.

A lot of people here that I can see have posted similarly strong opinions on many other boards, from Relationships to SNs to Style and Beauty.

May I just point out that in the Soviet Russia where the equiv titles to Mr/s Miss were abolished after the revolution 1917 in the proclaimed order to bring everyone up to the same level females suffered worst fate than in the western democracies. They were expected to work full day then to bring up the kids and look after the extended families much more so than the men, whilst the men took up all the control powers in the society (social/economic/cultural etc).

My greatgrandmother who wore trousers and had her own medical clinic in Russia in the 10s and 20s (and encouraged granddad to play with prams and dolls) was reduced to the status of housewife because her husband dared to leave the communist party in 1928. He, incidentally, was not allowed to work as an engineer for the rest of his life. The both narrowly escaped the Gulag.

My point is that titles is a red herring for oppressing patriarchy. A minorities should be given a voice in any democratic society even if they are the ones who would like to stay "Mrs". Women liberation does not start and does not finish with a title but in the freedom to choose her path in life in the same way as anyone else. The way I see it in the UK the biggest and most obstacle to female freedom is access to good quality and affordable childcare for all rich or poor. But no, for some it is the not the right to be called Ms but the removal of the right to be called Mrs.

Maryz: I wasn't arguing. I was giving up.

Question: true or false: when women use the title miss, ms or mrs they are making a statement about their marital status?

True or false: Men do not have the choice to declare their marital status in a title?

Affordable child care as key to female freedom IMO only partially addresses the issue. Affordable childcare impacting women more than men by definition ensures we consider childcare to be the province of women, either to do or to pay for. But that's a separate discussion.

The problem is that women DO get more status if they are married or even in a relationship. I am discriminated against as I am a single mum. It will take a long time for attitudes to change but I agree with the French; fabulous!

It is not a separate discussion, the reason why women consistently loose out to men as a group is to do with childcare provisions. Not because they or their peers are called Mrs.

But people come up with arguments that could be called unreasonable everywhere. It's not just a feminist board thing. I'm sure there are posters who shake their heads sadly at Relationships, The Doghouse (self included), Sleep, Behaviour and Development, even S&B, and AIBU positively encourages it.

I don't think the statement 'As you refuse to even admit that there is a difference in how men and women are referenced its clear to me you are clearly never going to come close to seeing the reasoning behind one basic female honorific for all women," means, 'I don't have to give a reasonable argument, I am just going to say "if you can't see the problem then you are ignorant".' To me it means that in order for the opinions of one poster to make sense, some basic tenets of the argument need to be accepted and without that acceptance the rest of the argument will be nonsense.

The background is that there is a question as to the difference between how men and women are referenced. Some people do not see how calling a man Mr all his adult life whether married or single is a marital status-blind title, while calling women either Miss or Mrs depending on whether they are married or single is not a marital status-blind title, and that therein lies the significant difference. The marital status of men has historically not affected their legal rights, aka their freedom. Women's lack of freedom otoh was indicated first by the title Miss, indicating minority, and then Mrs, indicating even more second-class-citizenship. From cradle to grave women were not seen as legally equal to men and the titles they were given reflected their relationships to the people in charge, the Mr's in their lives.

I have lost count of the number of times I have personally come across the phrase all over MN.

For Rhinos -- Mr as a title was the one for the man at the top of the heap. It wasn't used for black men, in the US. The marital status of women (that status indicated by their title as previously discussed) has historically meant legal non-personhood. I did not make up this warped and twisted and denigrated version of what marriage constituted historically. That was the work of legislators and courts and churches.

Each time I am being asked 'Miss or Mrs' by some stranger on the phone I feel as if they are invading my privacy.

toptramp did you feel discriminated as a single woman as opposed to a married one? I never did. I probably would feel discriminated as a single mother (I do not know, i am not even a married mother, I keep loosing babies)... but this is nothing to do with Ms/Miss/Mrs in front of your name or your friends' names. I think.

I lived in CA for a year and NOT ONCE on a form did I have to give my title. Nothing for work, banks, social security no, doctors, dentists, rental agreement etc. I found it a bit odd at first but quickly loved it.

Mathan: thank you. You expressed the reasoning behind my earlier statement much more clearly than I could myself.

Penguin, so how did they address the letters?

Bemybabe, your family's history in the USSR has much more to do with the nature of the USSR as a political beast than anything to do with whether Mrs or Miss or Ms are used. It is true that no matter what title is used the domestic arrangements and compromises made by women remain problematic in the practical sense, but the theoretical freedom women have won at least acknowledges that we have certain civil and human rights. In the Soviet Union citizens of both sexes had basically no rights as individuals.

What about getting rid of Miss and Ms, and giving all women the title Mrs?

Parachutes: I think those of us advocating ms probably would be fine with that. I couldn't care less what the female title is, I just don't want my marital status to be relevant.

"Is it so damning in this day and age to be married and be proud of that?" (my italics)