Why is feminism seen as a bad thing by other women??

[ledkr]

Hi,I would describe myself as a feminist but have no majorly radical views and am not an activist,.However,i am a female parent of 2 females and I expect myself and them to be able to move through our lives free from prejudism and discrimination so am therefore a feminist. However often in rl and on some of the threads on here it seems that that is a bad thing.I dont understand,surely if you are a female or indeed an intelligent male then it should go without saying.

Victor - you know as well as I do that... 'but might I respectfully suggest that this is not the thread for you?' means STFU.

Well, women in the UK don't get shot for going to school, so in that way sure, we're not Afghanistan.

But as my mum always said, just because the woman in the next bed has lost her leg doesn't make the loss of your arm any better, does it? There's little point comparing a UK woman to another UK woman, never mind an Afghani one: we should compare our UK lives to that of UK men.

Women in the UK live in a patriarchal society. It prioritises men, not women. Even if you discount male violence to women (and I don't know why you would) women earn less, are less represented in Parliament, etc. Do men earn more? Yes they do. Are they killed at the rate of two a week by violent partners? No they are not. Etc.

I really don't think it does. Just like me telling you to google Feminism 101 doesn't mean STFU.

But let's say it does. So what? It's one person's opinion. If several people are saying that you're wrong/have taken something the wrong way/need to consider what you're saying, then they probably have a point.

' If several people are saying that you're wrong/have taken something the wrong way/need to consider what you're saying, then they probably have a point.'

Unless they are men of course. In which case they are probably trying to repress you.

'But as my mum always said, just because the woman in the next bed has lost her leg doesn't make the loss of your arm any better, does it?'

But isn't this the kind of argument that a man could use? Re domestic violence perpetrated against men. Feminists will argue that there is more DV against women (which, of course, I don't deny) , therefore it is more important than DV perpetrated against men (I have read that on here). I believe that DV, no matter whether a man or woman experiences it, should be a huge issue for society as a whole.

'Unless they are men of course. In which case they are probably trying to repress you.'

I have met men (exDP's) who have tried to repress me. I have met women, at school, at work who have tried to repress me. At school I was bullied. All the perpetrator's were women. Are you telling me that I'm unique?

My DH tries occasionally, but fails miserably .

SF (cool name change by the way!) and Bonsoir:

Precisely what I was trying to say is that your/ my agency and free choice is severely compromised by society and its customs, un written rules. Not as much as in Afganistan or Iran or Saudia Arabia, but still compromised. That was I was trying to illustrate with references to my clothing choices and those of a person with a more conventional figure. This is why - IMHO- arguing that feminism doesn't care about individual women nor their choices is a straw man. Feminism wants people -men, women,mwhoever- to make their choices on a level playing field, where there are not one set of rules for one group and one for another. Feminists argue that there is no such level playing field at the moment and so choice is a fallacy, because you choose always from a limited set of options. Some women's are more limited than others, but just because I have more options than my counterpart in other parts of the world, or more options than my mum or grandma had in their day, doesn't mean that we should be complacent. I want my children to have more options than me, and grandchildren even more. Turning a blind eye to the very real inequalities still present in the Uk won't do that.

I would further like to add that bullying is a classic method of maintaining social norms and "acceptable" behaviour. The sex of the bully does not change the fact that the norms being imposed via bullying are those of a patriarchal society. Women are very good gatekeepers. We criticize each other for our choices, we subscribe to rape myths, etc etc. We keep our fellow women in line. We accept being objectified, we even might like it. It isn't more acceptable to me that this is done by women. But I do think it's not surprising.

Men do NOT earn more there happens to be a thing called MinWage!!
God that is all anyone ever says is MEN earns more welll they DO NOT!
No one can get payed less then the min p/h . Some men may have worked hard and trainned so therefore in a better paying job however women also can do this.
And I have known a few men who have very bad violent relationships from the women's hand!

LMAO at sigmunda being repressed by mumsnet, she is one of the least repressed people I've seen on here by way of her robust responses to everything! I think that is a good thing btw, I like people with opinions, even if I don't agree with them.

On the repression thing though, back to the earlier point about power structures being covert - the patriarchy operates through society and socialises people to accept certain behaviour as normal, not just through men but women too. However men are less likely to stand up and say this is not right because they can't see past the privileges they have, or why they should give them up. That is kind of where I am in my head with it at the moment. That probably doesn't add anything to the debate, I went out for dinner and had

sigmunda good name change. Much clearer now, although I still think you are a man, not because of your views, but because your name states that you are a fraud.

Why you calling her a man ? lol Strange because views are different?

For Sunshine.

sunshine your point doesn't make sense to me, men are frequently paid more for the same job, there is shitloads of research and evidence to support this, jfgi- widening pay gap uk.
Personal example: My old boss (a man) even saw fit to pay me the same as someone (a man) I was line managing! I only found out when I left the company, but it was pretty irritating, especially given that I am totally shit hot at my job, and not deluded, I have results to prove it! And I have never shyed away from asking for a payrise, so it is not that he negotiated more or harder. Anyway the rationale for paying him more was because he was married and had a family to support - so fucking what, I was senior to him, had more responsibility and was better at my job. Dicks. They didn't give payrises to any of the women once they had babies and a family to support!

No sunshine I called her a man by mistake on another thread, it was a joke. Hence the and she has the word fraud in her name.

Aload of rubbish! Like I said we all have minwage. However good we are as people in our job is what gets us a pay rise not what we wear underneath. Media always need somthing to write in this case it is talking YET again about under payed women but ,
It says things like men get payed more here
But women get payed more there
The reason it states this is because the company know they would get in trouble for typing up that men get payed more than women as it is not true! So it uses an example "Mangers" and it also has to state that women in other levels of work get payed more than men .
Everyone has their own talents , in the right job work hard you get results male or female .

I think that is a little naive sunshine it is not just the media, there is academic research too. They use anonymous data from surveys, so no one gets in trouble.

I am on 45k work very hard always have done
My Dp is on 18K works hard does more hours than me !

The difference is because I studied well got qualified stayed with the same company for years ect
Dp Works long hours now because he is a daddy but he doesnt but his efforts into it because he doesnt want to , he goes to work makes money and comes home (nothing wrong with that)
I however like to reach for the best and now it does pay off
Shorter hours great team ect.
If it was the other way round I would sit about bitching or coming out with crap like "Because I am women i earn less" the simply reason is its just not true!

I wouldnt rather :)
All though it probs would be easy to!

Sunshine, and what are the men in equivalent roles in your company paid? Might be eye-opening to find out.

Asone of the team mangers. I am very close working alongside all the other social workers and their mangers. We get payed on scale of qualification and length of stay not by gender .

I do not know maybe in some privite companys people get away with slating women but these should be reported so they can stopped.

Exactly duchesse I've always outearned my DH, but we don't work in the same industry, so it would be a nonsense comparison.

Maybe the disparity between men and women is greater in more senior professional roles. Unskilled jobs are at min wage/ very low wage so less scope for disparities to creep in.

Ah sunshine now I understand. Pay is much more discretionary in the private sector, and if you could iron out the inequalities across gender then I actually think it is a better system - the public sector pay system seems bonkers to me, you can't reward success, and you end up paying people that are not even that good at their job a decent salary, it's nuts. And yes I have worked private sector and public sector, in senior managerial posts.

Well thats a shame and should not happen. It needs to reported to be stopped though . So please report if happening to anyone . Otherwise it will go on and on.
Night all

Sunshine, if you look at the graph on the Guardian article, you can see that even in social work (largely public sector) there is a small disparity between men and women's pay.

Actually, looking at it again, the tiny disparity in sw is actually in favour of women. There is hope after all.