Why is feminism seen as a bad thing by other women??

[ledkr]

Hi,I would describe myself as a feminist but have no majorly radical views and am not an activist,.However,i am a female parent of 2 females and I expect myself and them to be able to move through our lives free from prejudism and discrimination so am therefore a feminist. However often in rl and on some of the threads on here it seems that that is a bad thing.I dont understand,surely if you are a female or indeed an intelligent male then it should go without saying.

I think the fact that the word 'feminism' is such a dirty word is because from the outset chauvinist men have been waging a very successful marketing campaign to make it so. They have attached an inaccurate and (to some) unflattering stereotype to the word and it has stuck. They score a victory every time a woman distances herself from it because she doesn't think she fits the stereotype they provided for her.
Quoted for truth.

Many women I know don't identify themselves as feminists because they are living a 'typically female' lifestyle. Eg, "I'm a SAHM, I do all the childcare, cleaning etc so I can't be a feminist can I? I chose this lifestyle because I wanted to raise my children".

I'm not saying they're right, they just don't get that feminism is about more than that.

"And lots of powerful people and organizations have a vested interest in oppressing women (and therefore promoting a view that feminism is ridiculous and women aren't oppressed), because it makes money."

Would anyone care to tell me more about this please?

I've thought of myself as a feminist ever since I can remember but have never had the time to educate myself on the theory or the 'big' issues.

How can feminists counter that negative propaganda though? As has been pointed out, those stereotypes were created a long time ago.
What has worked in other countries, such as those in Scandinavia that are further along the path than we are towards parity?

Is countering that propaganda the most useful thing to do though?

Or is it more important to (say) focus on developing a fairer system for women which in turn empowers them and therefore reduces the damaging impact of that propaganda?

Personally, I feel like stereotypes of hairy manhating feminists do little to damage me because I don't give a fuck - if someone wants to crack that kind of joke etc I just think "Oh, I see, you're an arsehole !" and get on with my life. The manifestations of sexism that have really impacted on me for example are gender discrimination at work - I'd be much more likely to see that as a problem that needed engaging with directly. Or the "justice system" that fails to deal anything like adequately with sex offenders - because just by being a woman I am so much more likely to be assaulted / raped and watch the perpetrator walk free.

I'm not saying that sexist jokes / stereotypes etc are in any way acceptable or not a big deal (or that it's not a good thing to counter / stand up to them) but that I think they would be reduced naturally if we had a government / society that was less riddled with entrenched sexism.

PS I'd also be interested in hearing from any Scandi feminists on this :)

So if we don't bother about countering the propaganda, why then does it matter that feminism is seen as a bad thing by other women? Shouldn't we just fight the good fight and stop fussing about our reputations?

Clearly you don't SF as you have said it .

Some women see feminism as not shaving your legs and hating all men and so on. I think that's part of it.

Also, the more radical, extreme version of feminism is the most prominent and some of those feminists are frankly horrible to non-feminist/liberal feminist women.

'Clearly you don't SF as you have said it'

Clearly I don't what? Have a right to debate it seems, as I'm being largely ignored. Great silencing technique that one. The OP asked a question, and I answered it. You know, actually, I have learned stuff from these forums, particularly about porn and how it may affect my DS's in the future, things I hadn't thought about before. So maybe all is not lost on me.

I honestly agree with you SigmundFraud. I have been a feminist since I was a teenager and I find a lot of feminists so unbelievably patronising. I don't think I've ever experienced another political group where people feel so strongly that they can sneer at your lifestyle choices or look down on you. And I say that as a vocal feminist - so god knows how women who aren't that into it feel.

Don't get me wrong I have a lot of great feminist friends, some of whom have very different views to me, but I really hate how some people act towards other women.

You just sit back, SF, sniping from the sidelines and learning from those putting themselves out there to debate this stuff. I do a lot of sitting ack, not so much of the sniping. Until now.

Why don't some women like feminism? Loads of reasons, mainly because it would harm them to identify. I get that. I dislike it, but I do understand. Why do some feminists dislike neo-liberalist feminsim? Because they understand that the battle, let alone the war, has not been won and making it all about the self and not about the wider "why?" doesn't actually get anything done.

In answer to the OP... I just don't see why you have to attach a label to yourself... I am fiercely independent but no way would I ever ever think of myself as a feminist. I know nothing about feminism and don't particularly want to. I just stand up for myself in the workplace, in life and I encourage my DDs to do the same. Why do you have to call yourself a feminist to do that?

Thanks yellowraincoat. I have lots of questions to ask feminists, because I enjoy a debate. But my questions are the wrong ones, and don't support some feminist principles and this is wrong. Apparently.

So if I say strip clubs are OK, surely it is a feminists job to tell me why they're not, in such a manner that I don't feel patronised, or made to feel like me saying strip clubs are OK proves I'm a misogynist. And to not tell me that my opinion is due to social conditioning, or brainwashing. Essentially making excuses for my bad non feminist thoughts i.e. they couldn't possibly be my own, I've been conditioned into thinking that.

It's that kind of rubbish that turns me off feminism. It doesn't mean that I don't have a moral compass though. And it definitely doesn't make me a misogynist, as I have been called.

'You just sit back, SF, sniping from the sidelines'

Hey, I sit on the sidelines because I've been firmly put there, trust me. Sniping is the only thing I have left, because any questions I have are silenced.

I think the best way to learn about feminism is to read. I find that when you debate it on a forum or in person it can sometimes get too heated and too personal.

' I answer questions which interest me and not ones which are asked clearly for the sake of causing trouble'

Causing trouble? You mean being asked to back up or question your claims. Got it. OK well I'll go read then...

Thanks yellow, I will go and read...I'm not finding any answers on the forums unfortunately.

It's funny, SF, because I have asked many questions of people posting in here to disagree. Rarely is one answered. I'm all abut asking questions, because I think keeping asking "Why?" answers most conumndrums in the feminism realm. I keep doing so on the j izz thread, but nada. I've done so on pron threads. On rape threads. Nothing.

Are we all talking at each other? Or asking questions without a "?"? Because I find it hard to believe that no feminists are ignoring an actual question. It's hard to resist

Ask away.

'It's a feminist's job to tell me, in a why that doesn't make me feel patronised' - surely it's not about your ego, though? (generic you)
That's personalising it, right there - your ego is bruised. But that's not a good reason to dismiss the arguments.

Is it a feminist's job to recruit others (with honey rather than vinegar, if that is more successful) or is it a feminist's job to work with the facts as they see them and fight oppressions? The facts are there, if anyone wants them.
Some feminists are patronising. Some diffident. Some polite, some fighty. Different personalities, is all.

Why isn't it a non-feminist's job to tell explain to me?

Not that I'd expect it or want it - but why?

Btw, if you genuinely struggle with reading books (I do), lurk around - people constantly explain things as they go, if you stick around long enough you will happen on it.

sigmundfraud - for me, feminism is not about making choices, and all choices being equivalent and so above criticism. i don't see criticism is not a silencing technique, either

feminism is for me a system of knowledge which allows me to analyse and interpret the power structures as they exist in society. this makes it sound fancier and more academic than it is; one of the powerful things about it is that it is accessible to anyone that wants to engage with it, regardless of education or how much reading they have done

i see all human relationships and society as predicated on the oppression of women, and constructed so as to maintain that oppression. some behaviours which reinforce these patterns of dominance are more damaging than others- i.e. the choice to comply with beauty standards vs the normalisation of violence against women

all of these behaviours ultimately serve the status quo, to greater or lesser degree

being aware of this does not make me immune, like everyone else i have absorbed and am soaking in, cultural norms, and they shape my expectations of normal, and it is a conscious effort to resist. sometimes, i don't, for many reasons.

so, i will critique the cultural expectations of beauty, i will not tell you you must not wear lipstick.

i will engage with your choices where they impact on mine - your choice to be an empowered pole dancer has a direct impact on my choice to not be fetishised, or my sexuality commodified

SF: Ever wanted to learn about a new hobby/skill/campaign? Did you find when you did so that some of the people you asked were helpful and friendly, some less so (perhaps because they were busy or having a bad day) and some pointed out to you that there was the equivalent of a manual or FAQ over there? Some people, everywhere, have more patience and tact than others. And some newbies, no matter what the situation, take absolutely everything personally because they think it's all about them no matter what.

.well you tell me why strip clubs are ok then. In a way which doesn't patronise, annoy or infuriate me.