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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why is feminism seen as a bad thing by other women??

171 replies

ledkr · 15/02/2012 18:07

Hi,I would describe myself as a feminist but have no majorly radical views and am not an activist,.However,i am a female parent of 2 females and I expect myself and them to be able to move through our lives free from prejudism and discrimination so am therefore a feminist. However often in rl and on some of the threads on here it seems that that is a bad thing.I dont understand,surely if you are a female or indeed an intelligent male then it should go without saying.

OP posts:
SigmundFraud · 16/02/2012 22:02

That's the thing though Aye..I want to ask feminists stuff because I find some of their sweeping generalisations mind blowing. I want to question it, but some (most, not all) seem to feel threatened by it. They seem to be suspicious of my motives and I keep thinking 'why'?

OK, so I get this is t'internet, and I could be some hairy arsed bloke on a wind up, but so could anyone on here. But it's the assumption, that because I'm questioning and disagreeing with feminists I MUST be winding them up, or a man..as I've been called many times (although I admit my name doesn't help!).

I'm a big girl and I can take the crap that's thrown at me, but it's always interesting how some feminists respond to me. I might chuck in the odd snide comment here and there, but it's nothing compared to how many have been aimed at me.

AyeRobot · 16/02/2012 22:07

Ask. And do it the genuine spirit of enquiry. Snidey questions get snidey answers.

Try one on here. I'll either answer or tell you why you might get the responses you expect. No side, just honest appraisal.

SigmundFraud · 16/02/2012 22:08

'.well you tell me why strip clubs are ok then. In a way which doesn't patronise, annoy or infuriate me.'

I could tell you personally why, in a way that didn't patronise. But I couldn't tell you in a way that didn't annoy or infuriate you, because I imagine you would never, however I dressed it up, accept that strip clubs were OK.

SigmundFraud · 16/02/2012 22:11

OK Aye. Thanks for taking me seriously btw..I'll look at the thread with the generalisations I wanted to counter, and I'll get back to you..

AyeRobot · 16/02/2012 22:14

OK. I'll look out.

Sunshine401 · 16/02/2012 22:16

feminism strip club ......... O yeahh I can see the match! :)

SigmundFraud · 16/02/2012 22:17

Actually, I've just remembered, and it's from memory so it's a general gist.

There is a view, and it was also made as a statement of fact, that men did not ejaculate on womens faces pre the porn era, and that porn has made this practice more mainstream.

My question would have been, well how do you KNOW that this wasn't mainstream prior to the visual porn era?

Sunshine401 · 16/02/2012 22:19

If you do not like strip clubs would have to point out you do not have to go in them.
Easy money and some women (and men) enjoy working in them sooo ... Its not all bad :)

OTheHugeManatee · 16/02/2012 22:23

And to not tell me that my opinion is due to social conditioning, or brainwashing. Essentially making excuses for my bad non feminist thoughts i.e. they couldn't possibly be my own, I've been conditioned into thinking that.

I find this uncomfortable as well. One of the pitfalls of over-focusing on structural analysis is that you can end up discounting individual agency - in effect saying we are all just automata conditioned by our environments. Telling people their thoughts are wrong and produced not by them but by an oppressive ideology is arguably just as likely to come from a Marxist as a feminist but to me it carries the same insinuation of wanting to control another's thoughts whichever political system it comes from, and however well-intentioned it is.

IAmLouise · 16/02/2012 22:23

I would say I have many feminist views but would never say I am a feminist, if you see what I mean by the difference. The term feminist covers a really wide range of view, some which are way to far out for me, so I don't use that term to describe myself.

SigmundFraud · 16/02/2012 22:24

SolidGoldBrass, Chibi, Jericho, Stewie, Sinical...thanks for your responses, not ignoring you...I have to go in a sec, DS2 is just about to start his 10.30(ish) nightime stirring...

duchesse · 16/02/2012 22:32

I think that what a lot of feminists object to is that many women use sex as a bargaining tool with men. Strip clubs and (consensual) porn are an example of this. It's a job and a choice of sorts, yes, but ultimately in many cases it's a poorly educated woman's best way of wresting cash from those who have it. From which I deduce that many women are in the sex industry because they have no choice due to the imbalance in asset distribution between men and women. Which imho should be the major topic that properly exercises anyone working in levelling disparity between the sexes.

Don't forget that many men in the world are also subject to exploitation and very poor working conditions- eg Chinese cockle pickers, Nigerian gold miners, usually due to exactly the same reasons: being extremely poor and it being their best chance of becoming solvent. It is really a choice to work in these extremely poor conditions when you factor in their alternatives?

I would really like to know whether there would be any women left working in the porn industry or "personal" services if men and women had equal access to good educations and good jobs and the logistical ability to stay in them once they have children. I suspect there would be very few.

AyeRobot · 16/02/2012 22:32

To me, it's just about asking "why?" and keeping on asking until I arrive at an answer I am happy with. I am sure that it is the same for many, although some stop at "I like it". And yes, then I find myself going "huh?"

I don't think we have nearly as much agency as we think we do, especially white middle and upper class western women who have been brought up in recent times to think the world is our lobster. Certainly the world is not nearly as much ours as many of the males around us, if you spend the next week watching.

SF - that's a fair point, with some caveats that I shall ponder whilst I make a cuppa. Did many feminists make that point?

SweetTheSting · 16/02/2012 22:33

SGB, great post.

Re the OP. I have never seen feminism as a bad thing, but I might not have always called myself a feminist. Semantically, I associated 'feminist' with 'activist' (as an analogy: I care about the planet and try and turn lights off and recycle, but I wouldn't call myself an 'environmentalist' - that would refer to someone in Greenpeace, or a Green Party member etc)

I don't think like that now about the word feminist Smile but perhaps some others might see the language in that way too.

SinicalSanta · 16/02/2012 22:37

That is interesting OTheHugeManatee

But afaics feminism is more concerned with the structure than with individual choices.
People will always choose to do something that benefits them. WHY a particular choice is beneficial is dependent depends on the structure around them. It reminds me of certain economic arguments - the job of government isn't to create jobs, it's to create the conditions which create jobs. It's not society's job to force women to show their breasts, but to create the conditions in which women choose to.

That's a bit rambly - but like SF I am starting to here grizzling from upstairs. trying to ignore but distracted...

SigmundFraud · 16/02/2012 22:37

Yes, a fair few..I have to go..DS2 is sat on my lap and I've got to re-settle him.

SinicalSanta · 16/02/2012 22:40

Me too AyeRobot with the why thing. Grin

The voice in my head is the voice of a demented toddler.
Sometimes the toddler starts singing the cbeebies Tinga Tinga Tales song
-I ask WhyWhyWhyWhyWhy x 34.

Can you tell I'm all toddlered out

Sunshine401 · 16/02/2012 22:40

Men and women both suffer all over the world I dnt really understand the o Im a women so its worse thing :( But maybe thats just me

chibi · 16/02/2012 22:42

I may post more tomoz but it would appear i have a fever, so will v soon lack clarity and lucidity

AyeRobot · 16/02/2012 22:57

Sunshine, it doesn't make much sense to me either. Sad

duchesse · 16/02/2012 23:47

In fairness, there is suffering all over the world, but women (and by extension, children) seem to bear the brunt of it.

duchesse · 16/02/2012 23:50

I would be very much interested in studying further this people, where the women own the property but the men run public life. I wonder if it's more egalitarian.

CatitaInaHatita · 17/02/2012 01:35

Reading the last part of this thread I can't help feeling that feminism is often seen as a bad thing precisely for the objections that SF is articulating; especially her opposition to the idea that people's choices are socially conditioned (you use the word "brainwashing" SF, which suggests a lot of hostility to me).

While people argue that their choices are entirely free, it will always be possible to affirm that strip clubs/porn etc are not always harmful. At the same time their arguments on this subject with feminists who believe in the idea of social conditioning will be be essentially debates in which both sides appear to talking at cross purposes.

Without going into questions likely to lead to bunfights, I can only think of explaining a my feminist point of view as follows.

I see myself as a free agent with the necessary intelligence to decide what to do and what not to do. I know what I like and have made many decisions about what I do not and what I am willing to tolerate or not. I think that the vast, vast majority of adults are just like me.

However, when it comes to clothes, what I wear is very much dictated by what is available. I am small and humpbacked and I find it difficult to find clothes that fit in mainstream shops. I buy clothes that fit me from the choices available. However, even if I was a size zero 6 footer, I would also be in the same situation. I just might have more choices available to me than I do as a humpbacked midget.

However, even if I were a size 0, if I wanted to dress like Elizabeth I or Bodicca on a daily basis I would find it difficult, if not impossible to find clothes for this on the high street. I could make my own clothes or have a dressmaker make them for me, if I had the money, but otherwise the chances of me being able to dress like Elizabeth or Bodicca are slim.

Finally, how do I decide what I like amongst the choices I have? Do i go to the shop with no expectations or ideas? In my case ( and I suspect I am not alone in this) I decide what kind of thing I am looking for on the basis of when I am going to wear the clothes and for what occasion. I also base my decisions on what I think looks good on friends or colleagues etc. For work situations especially, custom and rules impose certain clothes on me. Many non work situations, like weddings, parties, parents evenings etc also have informal or formal rules of dressing.

In short: my clothing choices are constrained by fashion, my physical appearance and my budget. They are also constrained by written and unwritten social rules about dress. I make my clothing decisions within all these variables. Feminism argues that all choices within current society are similarly constrained. Some people have more choices than others due to physical appearance, riches, education and a host of other variables. The variable of biological sex determines many of these choices, but within the sexes different people have more or less choice depending on their life conditions.

Feminism criticizes this set-up by pointing out how people's choices are conditioned by the society in which they live in. The aim is not to claim that women are brainwashed or too stupid to make sensible decisions. The aim is to show that "free" choice is an illusion that can blind us to the constraints in which we all live, or indeed an illusion that makes us hostile to anyone who points them out.

Finally - to put an end to a mammoth post - feminism insists that one of the most weighty constraints placed on women's free agency is the custom and tradition that a woman's most important asset is her body and her attractiveness to men. (Which is why being ugly and a lesbian are often used as insults to women). We tend to refer to this as the objectification of women, ie considering then objects designed principally for the male gaze. Acts and institutions which promote the objectification of women are thus viewed as harmful to women as a whole and hard to justify even if they might benefit some women as individuals.

Thank you of you read all that.

blackcurrants · 17/02/2012 11:55

that's a great analogy, Cat

VictorGollancz · 17/02/2012 17:28

I'm just musing really, lurking and enjoying the discussion, but some people, some of whom might be women, are totally unable to separate themselves from any political discussion.

So a discussion of women's disempowerment is always going to leave them cold, because they can't get past the point of shouting 'I AM EMPOWERED', as if their one experience means that the rest of global womankind are doing just dandy.

Then they get the hump when others point out that actually, while having a nice boyfriend/taking the lead in bed/earning more money than their male partner/not feeling oppressed is all very good, and exactly the right direction we want to be heading in, this is not enough to ignore group statistics, vast economic patterns and well, large scale political analysis. Suddenly, feminism isn't for them - it is 'irrelevant'.

This obsession with the individual gets very tiring and is the major reason I'm hardly on this board any more. You are one woman; feminism is about women.