Why is feminism seen as a bad thing by other women??

[ledkr]

Hi,I would describe myself as a feminist but have no majorly radical views and am not an activist,.However,i am a female parent of 2 females and I expect myself and them to be able to move through our lives free from prejudism and discrimination so am therefore a feminist. However often in rl and on some of the threads on here it seems that that is a bad thing.I dont understand,surely if you are a female or indeed an intelligent male then it should go without saying.

Also we request inconvenient things like votes and equal pay and maternity leave. Quite apart from having the temerity to disagree with blokes from time to time.

Not all men are evil rapists and abusers, not all men think women are inferior, and many men are oppressed and powerless in their own lives. Sure. We know.

But that doesn't mean that women can't concentrate on women's oppression. It doesn't mean that a woman is being selfish when she says that, actually, she's not going to wait to fight for her own rights until all the men's issues are solved.

ANd men, even nice men, benefit from male privilege all the time.

the feminist mystique has a good explanation. v roughly - women should be meek & mild & compliant. if not, they are butch lezzo who hate men.

i prefer civil rights - after all, mlk didn't fight for blackism, did he? no-one said that whites couldn't support the blackist movement. i think genderising it just makes it harder to make people see that equality is an issue for everyone, not just part of the population.

One problem for feminists is that everytime you discuss patriarchal oppression and male misogyny in general terms, you have to make the disclaimer...but not all men are like that course!! Even then people might ignore this and start going on how you can't say that all men are bad. Which is not was you were saying, you were talking about general patterns in society. It's really tiresome.

When people want to talk about equalism instead of feminism, it tends to end up hiding women's specific issues and problems we face.
It's possible to be a feminist AND care about other oppressed groups and issues. Most do.

"Also we request inconvenient things like votes and equal pay and maternity leave. Quite apart from having the temerity to disagree with blokes from time to time."

See, I find maternity leave being restricted to women (and yes I know, now blokes can take the unpaid part, but that's not really helping much) actually hurts women in their employment prospects and no anti-discrimination legislation is ever going to change this - that's one example why I think it's short-sighted to concentrate on things as women's issues alone.

SGM - what you say makes sense - but if he's not really thought about it (I didn't realise until you explained - then it's not weird, he just wanted to help.

So, by all means, yes, explain to him why you can't/won't give the address, but do it like you explained just now, not in an agressive "how dare you" manner.

Some women don't see the point because they don't know much history or sociology, so they are unaware of the many oppressions through the ages, and they don't register the things that go on around them (or in other countries), and think that equal rights are a solved problem .

In a nutshell I would say that people who don't like feminism are wrong.

Men who don't perceive that the patriarchy damages them and their sons / brothers / fathers too.

Men and women who have an extremely inaccurate idea of what feminism is and what it wants to achieve.

Women who think that sexism is no longer a problem.

Etc.

Arseholes aside, I generally find that those who profess not to like / believe in feminism generally don't understand what feminism is.

Looking on the bright side though, I also think there are lots of people who are basically feminists who would never wear that label!

Makes me cross when women enjoy benefits that feminists have fought for (equal wages etc.) but just take it for granted, and say that they are not feminists themselves.

My mum worked in a school in the 60's where the headmistress, who was single, couldn't get a mortgage without her father's involvement . But so many women nowadays are unaware of stuff like this and don't appreciate what they've got, nor see the gaps and inequalities that are still there.

Yes, Gin: your friend's intentions may well have been good, but what he hadn't grasped is that it's not all about him and how 'lovely' he is. Something almost all men find impossible to cope with is the idea of putting women ahead of their own wishes and feelings.

I agree with all posts.

AllPastYears - well said about the benefits. I often wonder if black people in America deny the sacrifices the civil rights workers made to make their lives better (even though their fight is not over yet).

I often think that women deny feminism is needed today because they do not want to admit or accept that they are not equal because it is such a piss off. I know that some women I talk to about objectification just do not want to listen and put it out of their heads because they think it only happens to 'bad girls' and will never happen to a female in their family/social circle. The patriarchy is a hard thing to accept (it makes me sick too) so they think if they ignore it it isnt happening. If they laugh and sneer along with the men who do it they wont be called names etc by the men. Too many women are too worried about what men will think. I dont understand it myself. I COULD NOT care less what men think of me. The men who know me and agree are the only ones I am interested in.

'Yes, Gin: your friend's intentions may well have been good, but what he hadn't grasped is that it's not all about him and how 'lovely' he is. Something almost all men find impossible to cope with is the idea of putting women ahead of their own wishes and feelings.'

Surely the manager should have been able to respond to his offer of help without ranting and yelling at him. Especially as the first person asked him to phone back when the manager was available and that's what he did.
To get a huge bollocking for offering to donate.
Yes, be proactive about keeping the hostel male-free, but why be aggressive to someone wanting to support them who was on the phone? They could just have said, no, we only accept assistance from women, don't ring again.
I'm impressed that he went on to donate through an acceptable female rather than just thinking 'Sod that then'

If that's what she said, then I wouldn't have bothered posting. But why say 'a torrent of abuse?'
Do you really think that someone that entitled and arrogant would then bother to go on and try and donate through a third party?

OP, have you considered asking your question in chat, rather than on the feminist boards?
You might get a different set of answers from the people you are talking about. The ones who are confused about feminism and what it represents to them.

'OP, have you considered asking your question in chat, rather than on the feminist boards?'

Oops. I meant as well as on the feminist boards.

Women don't like feminism imo because the androgyny shit peddled by 1970s men (all feminists are man-hating lesbians with short hair, DMs and dungarees). I agree with what someone said early on, that many women would rather appeal to men than have more power.

Many women think that feminism is about women having more power than men- many women say "I'm not a feminist, I'm an egalitarian" without realising that women are not equal yet and a quick comparison of numbers of women and men in top posts and top salaries would reveal that.

Also women having more power/say in things upsets the implicit world order they have- it threatens their basic belief system. This is built up from their very earliest infancy- just look at the shit still on CBeebies- and is difficult to counter as it's so huge.

I think the fact that the word 'feminism' is such a dirty word is because from the outset chauvinist men have been waging a very successful marketing campaign to make it so. They have attached an inaccurate and (to some) unflattering stereotype to the word and it has stuck. They score a victory every time a woman distances herself from it because she doesn't think she fits the stereotype they provided for her.

So why don't all the amazing women who identify as feminist counterbalance the propaganda from my childhood? Why do ignorant and stereotypical viewpoints still hold so many women in thrall that were out of date 40 years ago?
I was a teenager in the 70s, I remember the stereotypes and the fight to be seen as equal and able in my own family and my own life, as well as in the wider sphere.
There are a lot more positive role models around now, so why are women still avoiding the feminist word? Or are actively against it?

The feminist movement began amongst middle & upper class women. They had amazingly protected & comfortable lives compared to their counterparts who had to work at the time. Even so, they found the 'gilded cage' was too suffocating & didn't allow them to be recognised as people in the same way that men were (and not even all men, back then).

When women started to meet in separate groups (having not been allowed into the mens abolitionist meetings) in the US, the men started saying how they were an abolition against nature, ugly, men hating, anti babies etc.

The truth was, many of them were very feminine, petite, quiet etc. They did, however, experiment with wearing bloomers, and that caused more comment from their oponents.

'There are a lot more positive role models around now, so why are women still avoiding the feminist word? Or are actively against it?'

Because you patronise us and you accuse us of being completely incapable of rational thought, or having our own opinions and I resent that more than I can say.

"We don't know that the manager did 'rant and yell' at him. We know he perceived her response as aggressive, but men do perceive it as aggressive when their privilege is pointed out to them, no matter how politely. For all we know the manager said 'it's not appropriate for men to call this number and we do not give out shelter addresses to anyone' "

Artex - well, we don't know whether she did or whether she didn't - but I wouldn't assume by default that it can only have been the man whose perception was wrong. Just look at this board, where sometimes responses are very aggressive. The aggression might be based in "not wanting to engage with those misogynists again", but that doesn't make it any less aggressive.

I don't think it's entirely impossible that the manager's self perception of what is a reasonable tone could have been wrong.

Neither of us have been there, so we don't know. Your version could be right. His version could be equally correct