That school that is implanting girls with hormonal contraception without their parents knowing...

[BasilRathbone]

... that is a feminist issue, is it not?

Hormonal contraception can have very serious side effects. They are having 13 year old girls injected with them, I'm not sure whether they ask these girls first, if they are actually having sex and wanting sex.

I feel very disturbed by this, it smacks of contracepting girls ready for boys to fuck them without having to negotiate other ways of sexual activity, contraception, consent issues etc. Also where is the protection from sexually transmitted diseases in this approach to tackling teen pregnancy, where is the regard for the girl's long term health, where is the discussion around whether they actually want to be penetrated by boys at this stage of their lives and whether the sex they are having is truly consensual?

Would they inject boys with hormonal contraception with such alacrity?

What do you lot think?

[MsCorleone]

That is the media headline! In reality it can happen, however, in my experience not many 13 year olds would be deemed competent to consent. If they were deemed competent then i've already explained that they would be fully assessed and the implant fitted.

In my area of practice young people can access emergency contraception, pregnancy testing and condoms in school. Anything more would be done in the clinic setting. The majority attend for advice not contraception. The average age is probably 15.

[Dworkin]

I would say then that you do good work and would ask why this has happened in a school?

Do you agree with what was said in the OP, given the consent implications involved?

I'm just interested in your view and it seems to me that you regard that "not many 13 year olds would be deemed competent to consent." This, at least, gives me peace of mind.

[SardineQueen]

Just skimmed to catch up
Re sex with people under 16 but not under 13 if it is consensual and no coercion etc then there is not likely to be a prosecution according to current CPS guidence here. I am also never sure when this is raised about how going on sex offenders register etc will ruin young man's life a. how this is going to happen when he's not going to be reported for consensual sex and b. how this is going to happen as even if he was reported it almost certainly wouldn't result in any charges.

On main point of thread I also think that very young people whose bodies are still developing having long term hormonal contraception or even the pill is generally very undesirable for a variety of reasons all of which mentioned on here.

As an aside and for personal reasons I am suddenly very off anything of this sort having had a mirena fitted after DC2, not being told about side effects of depression / anxiety and now the strings have gone and to have it removed I have to have a general anaesthetic. Certainly the way these devices are dished out to women leaves me uncomfortable. There should be more concentration on methods men can use (ball-zapping as raised upthread sounds great) and a move away from a situation where females move from childhood to a lifetime of hormone regulation and all that can result in, and that's that.

When I started my sex life I used condoms and then went on the pill - I got it from brook without parents knowing - at least with the pill you can do useful stuff like miss periods and you can stop it yourself if you wish and start up again and it's just a bit less extreme somehow.

[SardineQueen]

Sorry stream of consciousness combined with pity plea

[Dworkin]

Actually it doesn't give me peace of mind.

What would a jury say to a gang rape of a thirteen year old girl by 18 year old men when the school nurse thinks:

"not many 13 year olds would be deemed competent to consent"

not many

Disgraceful.

[thebody]

I would b fukin livid if this happened to my 12 year old dd, u may as well put a sign round neck saying its ok boys, fuck me, no come back!
And what about stds?

[DilysPrice]

Total red herring Dworkin. I'm entirely competent to give consent to sex when I want it but that doesn't mean that a jury would therefore assume I wasn't raped if I said I was.
Do you believe that any thirteen year old is ever capable of making an informed decision to have sex in a given situation? Maybe you don't, I'm not entirely sure I do - but all MrsC is saying that she, and the law (sort of) believe that it is sometimes possible.

[thebody]

No child can consent to sex ! If we say they can it's a
Pedophile paradise,

I was abused by the school bus driver at 11 years old, all the girls were, it was the 70s, noone believed us.

But hey now no worries the school could implant us with hormones and make it less risky for all, how nice..

[SardineQueen]

In law, sex with a child under 13 is always automatically rape. Children under 13 are deemed to be unable to consent to sexual activity.

thebody I am sorry what happened to you and your friends. I am doubly sorry that people were told and no-one acted. It must make you so angry.

[Dworkin]

I'm reporting you to Mumsnet DilysPrice. Your post was victim blaming at the very least. Goodbye.

I'm sorry too thebody that you had noone believe you. I find this still persists today...strangely!

[readyveg]

So there are capable and sexually confident young women who choose to have sex often a while before they are 16. I can see no reason to deny them the most effective forms of contraception if they are given good information to help them make their decisions and this s what they want.

The other group crudely delineated are vulnerable, are victims. There is no benefit to them getting pregnant. Condoms will be pushed, info about STIs shared, but an implant offers them the best chance of avoiding pregnancy. Condoms are not great at this.

I do care about the wider issues and pressures that create this situation but I wonder whether anyone here works with this last group and sees no benefit to implant contraception? This group includes girls often abused previously, girls in care, in chaotic families, who are recklessly seeking sex, being shared around groups of boys/men. Until there is away to prevent this directly and immediately (entry into a secure unit/increasingly rare therapeutic unit being the only ways I have seen this happen) then it disempowers these girls further if they can't get the most effective contraception. The boys/men couldn't give a shit either way, there are no consequences for them. Effective prevention of pregnancy does nothing to hamper the other sorts of change I would like to see. Incidentally the youth group I see with the biggest take upnof these implants are girls who have been pregnant. They often wish they had chosen them earlier.

Thebody I am sorry you were abused and not believed. The seventies were awful for this, we still have a huge way to go not least with regard to convictions but children today would be believed. Nurses, teachers, support staff would all refer on immediately.

[KRITIQ]

Some of my colleagues work closely with school nurses, who encounter some really shitty situations involving young people. In my experience, they try hard to do what's the right thing for the young person, balancing up their right to self determination within the realm of their capabilities and the need to ensure they aren't harmed. It ain't an easy job and I think it's simplistic and inaccurate to suggest that they are just handmaidens for the patriarchal medical establishment.

Readyveg, the scenario you describe in the third paragraph is ghastly, but in my experience, not uncommon. As you say, the men who abuse and exploit vulnerable women don't give a shit whether or not they're on the pill, have an implant or whatever. It's not like they'll pass a girl by if she isn't and in fact, some actually WANT them to become pregnant as this gives them a means of exerting further control over them.

So, if you deny young women in that situation access to contraception, it ain't going to make her any less vulnerable to continued abuse and exploitation. However, it will increase her risk of unplanned pregnancy (which carries more health risks for a young woman than contraceptives,) which creates a scenario "tying" her to her abuser and possibly pole axe her chances of continuing in education and strictly limits her life choices. And, I can point you to the stacks of evidence showing poorer health, education, economic, relationship, etc. outcomes for the children of very young mothers living in such chaotic, unsupported circumstances.

Frankly, it sucks that we live in a society that allows, nay encourages boys and men to abuse and exploit vulnerable young women. As I said above, just dishing out contraceptives won't change that, but at least it could help them avoid pregnancy and all the negative consequences that can bring for them.

But, I would like to see more done on trying to change the situ where men are allowed to abuse and exploit young women in this way - where young women still seem to be getting the blame and stigma for what happens to them.

[DilysPrice]

Dworkin I assume I misread your post - you certainly misread mine. I read you as saying that acknowledging that some underaged girls can give a valid form of consent will undermine the defence of those who have not given consent. That would be rubbish - an adult woman may give consent but may also be raped.

On second reading I think you were actually talking about the tragic third situation where a vulnerable girl is cynically coerced into sex (sometimes with several men) but does not realise that she's being abused - I definitely didn't mean to suggest that because such a girl doesn't realise she's been raped she's therefore culpable or less worthy of defence.

[readyveg]

Absolutely kritiq. Think your thoughtful posts are very insightful.

Very true about pregnancy being tying and limiting for many of these girls.

[thebody]

Dworkin, thank u I do feel that this has coloured my life, but rest assured my 3
ds s now 22 and 21 and 19 are so protective of their younger sister 12. Actually they drive her mad! But love the fact that she is so kick ass, god forbid any bloke takes advantage of her, wish I had been as tough as her and sooooo glad she is

[MsCorleone]

Dworkin i'm lost, i've no idea what you are talking about but I get the impression that you are determined to be 'Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells'.
Your comments have lost me:-
What would a jury say to a gang rape of a thirteen year old girl by 18 year old men when the school nurse thinks:
"not many 13 year olds would be deemed competent to consent"
not many...no idea what you are trying to say...what has their capacity to consent for contraception got to do with gang rape???

I'm saying that when a 13 year old presents wanting contraception they would have to be assessed as frazier competent. That would mean they would have to adequately demonstrate to me that they understand the information I have discussed with them around the side effects and risks etc. Some 13 year olds will be capable of this, however, a significant number (In my experience) will not...therefore they won't be given contraception.

Some of the longer acting contraceptives do come with risks and where possible a practitioner would consider an alternative for lots of reasons. In some circumstances it is appropriate to give an implant.

As for agreeing with the op, yes I certainly do explore if these girls are engaging in sexual activity of their own free will and consider all of the pros and cons when deciding the contraception offered. I disagree with the op's comments about nurses and doctors "contracepting girls ready for boys to fuck them without having to negotiate other ways of sexual activity, contraception, consent issues etc". As a nurse working in this area I find these comments highly insulting.

KRITIQ, DilysPrice and readyveg...I agree with your comments!

[SardineQueen]

This brings us back to the original point which is that adult women often don't fully understand the side effects - the HCPs prescribing seem to be unaware of some of them - add to that the total lack of fear of mortality that is normal in young people and you don't get people who are really understanding but are listening and nodding.

When I was told the potential side effects of the pill when I went to brook to get it I nodded and smiled. I didn't for a minute genuinely think that there was a risk of thrombosis or whatever for me, and I was a smoker.

I find the lack of protection against STDs and the lack of responsibility for the boys very troubling.

Also. If a 13 yo goes and asks for contraception is there any question of who they are having sex with? IMO there should be a real emphasis for older males that having sex with underage girls is illegal and if there is a power imbalance in a relationship, coercion etc then prosecution is standard. There seems to be little focus on the males.

Even the £1.2 million promised to help girl gang members who are sexually abused & exploited - this is great news - but where is the money to try to prevent the young men from doing it in the first place & where are the prosecutions of the ones who have?

I have no desire to pursue youngsters who are engaged in consensual sexual activity with their peers. I do however think that there is far too little being done about men having inappropriate relationships with much younger / vulnerable people.

[SardineQueen]

It seems that in our society it is accepted that men and boys will behave badly / illegally / exploit / coerce when it comes to sex. And the focus is on "damage limitation" - prevent pregnancy where possible and councel the girls afterwards.

The effect on society of all the STDs and mental health problems suffered by the victims is generally overlooked, while the ones who do have babies are vilified. Are the mental health problems not a cause for concern as when females suffer in this way they tend to harm themselves rather than others? I don't know.

But it's all very worrying.

[MrsHoarder]

SardineQueen: there are things that we try to do to prevent men and boys "behaving badly", from laws against rape, parents trying to stop their sons going out late at night through to giving them as many life chances as possible to do productive things.

But this isn't always going to succeed, and the health authority/schools have to do something to try to keep the girls as safe as is in their power to do so. This obviously can't extend to tracking them 24 hours a day, but does extend to long-lasting contraceptives such that girls living distressed and chaotic lives don't end up having children in that situation which would help no-one.

I would back this provision of contraceptives (whilst hoping my DD would come to me do discuss this matter when she reaches the stage of being sexually active) because it keeps those who fall through the net a little bit safer.

[SardineQueen]

They aren't being arrested though, and punished, are they.

[SardineQueen]

Incidentally I don't appreciate your implication that I see matters of rape and sexual exploitation as simply a bit of bad behaviour on the part of men and boys.

I said this "It seems that in our society it is accepted that men and boys will behave badly / illegally / exploit / coerce when it comes to sex. " which is an entirely different thing.

[BasilRathbone]

MsCorleoone can you try and get over your professional offence please. It's not about you.

I think feminists have every right to question the way the medical profession deals with contraception.

Grown women are not properly informed of the real risks of hormonal contraception.

The medical profession has never been good at honesty and openness about risks and it has an unlovely history with regards to its treatment of women.

Stop getting on your high horse about this, it's bloody irritating.

[BasilRathbone]

Are you actually reading the posts from women saying they weren't told about the full side effects, weren't told that they needed a general anaesthetic to have the mirena coil removed, etc.?

Or are you too busy fulminating against the potential insults to your profession?

[SardineQueen]

Weren't told they might need a general anaesthetic to have mirena removed.

I think most people have them out no problems. But still someone might have mentioned it as a risk, surely? Also the anxiety / depression thing given my history. Also part of the problems is that I have had 2 sections and not really laboured much at all, so my cervix is closed very tight. The gynae who examined me the other day said "they must have had a hell of a job getting it up there" - and that's true and it wasn't pleasant. But no-one suggested that as a woman who had not laboured / given birth vaginally, and had post natal depression/anxiety, maybe this wasn't the right contraceptive choice for me. It was recommended highly as just the ticket. Bad experiences with unsuitable hormonal contraception are common - there are squillions of threads on here about it. If adult women and HCPs can't get it right, then how does that even begin to work for teenagers?

[BasilRathbone]

Well quite SQ.

That's why I'm becoming ever so slightly irritated by this tone of outrage of any questioning of HCPs when it comes to dealing with women and girls' bodies.