That school that is implanting girls with hormonal contraception without their parents knowing...

[BasilRathbone]

... that is a feminist issue, is it not?

Hormonal contraception can have very serious side effects. They are having 13 year old girls injected with them, I'm not sure whether they ask these girls first, if they are actually having sex and wanting sex.

I feel very disturbed by this, it smacks of contracepting girls ready for boys to fuck them without having to negotiate other ways of sexual activity, contraception, consent issues etc. Also where is the protection from sexually transmitted diseases in this approach to tackling teen pregnancy, where is the regard for the girl's long term health, where is the discussion around whether they actually want to be penetrated by boys at this stage of their lives and whether the sex they are having is truly consensual?

Would they inject boys with hormonal contraception with such alacrity?

What do you lot think?

[TunipTheVegemal]

Maybe there is some side effect that only appears 4 years after the pills were taken and is too horrifying to mention so it's always hushed up, the men start liking flowers for instance.

[BasilRathbone]

Apparently we've been 5 years away from a male pill, for 30 years.

[SardineQueen]

I remember that story. It seems these things are always just around the corner and never quite get here.

[BasilRathbone]

here

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/836436.stm

"Mood swings" "lowered libido" etc. are thought to be side effects that are unacceptable for men. Tehy're perfectly acceptable for women, of course.

99% sure is pretty good, though still I think not quite as effective as the female pill. Better than condoms though, but of course, not good for protecting against STI's.

Those reports make it look like the pills are ready to go.

I accept that that may be an exaggeration and I seem to remember reading somewhere that they're ready to actually go into production, but can't find any reference to that now, so maybe I was imagining it. It's a bit odd that every single time a research project gets to a stage where they're getting close to production stage, the research gets pulled.

It's like they're looking for perfection with a male pill - 100% efficacy with no side effects at all. Even the female pill doesn't have 100% success.

[Theas18]

Basilrathbone can you link to a reliable sourse to back up your comment "there is a male pill available and ready for release"

'cos I'm afraid you are talking total hogwash!!!

Nothing on here......

www.fsrh.org/default.asp

[SardineQueen]

Your posts seem to indicate that you think that nurses are better at this work and generally more trustworthy / professional than doctors?

Fundamentally though people receiving things like hormonal contraception will feel that they have met with someone with the appropriate knowledge?

This conversation came about because someone upthread said that the medical profession had a chequered history when it came to transparency and so on. And you were keen to distance yourself (as a nurse) from that. The comment came about because of comments that not all HCPs do not seem to be fully aware of all the risks of hormonal contraception and that risks are not always being adequately explained to the patients. You seek to separate your area from this but surely if doctors are not fully aware of all the side effects etc then nurses are not going to be either? Given that the criteria and so on that they work from are presumably provided by doctors in the first place.

Is it really the case that nurses who are dispensing (is that a better term?) hormonal contraception are just thoroughly more competent than doctors?

And even if they are - what difference does it make to a conversation about whether long term hormonal contraception is appropriate for girls and young women?

Sorry I'm just not really following.

[MsCorleone]

The reason I make the distinction is because a Dr is prescribing and can make a decision to do that off license. They generally don't have to explain or justify their actions to anyone else.

In contrast a nurse generally works to a PGD meaning that they have strict criteria to work within, they are not prescribing they are assessing somebody as meeting a pre-set criteria. In my experience nurses generally take more care to explain all the pros and cons and do a thorough job because they have more hoops to jump through. In my area a consultation with a young person is given the necessary time, if that takes 3 hours then that is what it takes. Dr's generally have 15 minute time slots and the whole thing is more rushed.

I'm not trying to create a 'them and us' I am merely pointing out we are not the same.

[BasilRathbone]

Kritique, yes of course I'm aware of the risks of a full term pregnancy (and abortion) for 13 year olds.

I'm not advocating that we leave them to get pregnant.

I just want to discuss all the issues around this from a feminist perspective.

[SardineQueen]

And I'm not sure it matters for this conversation?

[SardineQueen]

I mean, if someone is giving hormonal contraception to people, then that is a medical function. It doesn't matter in the eyes of the patient whether that person is a doctor, nurse or pharmacist - for that "transaction" for want of a better word they are acting in a medical capacity, aren't they?

[SardineQueen]

""The medical profession has never been good at honesty and openness about risks and it has an unlovely history with regards to its treatment of women"
What never! really? I'm not part of the medical profession, i'm part of the nursing profession."

But this isn't about you, is it? It's about HCPs as a whole and lots of nurses do prescribe.

And if you are giving contraception then you are prescribing. The fact that you have it in your cupboard, or whatever, rather than writing out a prescription doesn't mean you are not prescribing. If you are handling hormonal contraception and deciding whether people should have it or not then you are acting in a medical capacity.

I don't understand the line you are trying to draw between "us" and "them" in the healthcare world and TBH I don't think it's important. I don't really understand what your point is and how it relates to the thread TBH.

[MsCorleone]

Sardine I don't prescribe I work to a patient group directive (PGD)

KRITIQ I think you have attempted to explain the massive wider picture of issues which are tangled up in this debate.

I completely agree with you Sardine about society not addressing these issues. If these girls were 12 it would be a police matter, but I agree with your sentiments about the focus being on girls.

[SardineQueen]

Not you Kritiq, I know you don't accept it.

[SardineQueen]

"Most young women aren't in situations where they can use condoms (as most aren't fully in control of how and when they have sex.)"

This bit. Right here. Why is this bit never addressed by society / the police / the papers and so on?

Why are 15 year old boys who are sleeping with 12 year old girls (if they are sleeping with them) not having to have difficult conversations with the police? Why is this stuff just accepted as, oh dear, but you can't do anything, can you. Or worse, the girls are vilified.

[KRITIQ]

Basil, with respect, are you aware of the risks of a full term pregnancy for a 13 year old? There are higher medical risks for a young woman of that age (e.g. bleeding, tearing, adhesions, future infertility, etc.) and for the child (e.g. low birthweight, failure to thrive, higher risk of early childhood accidents, etc.), quite apart form the social and emotional issues involved in becoming a mother at that age, often without positive support to deal with stuff.

I realise that there are risks with hormonal contraception (and it would be rare for a coil to be fitted for a very young woman, particularly who hasn't had children because of the higher risk to fertility,) for some women, but when you weigh those up against the likelihood of a highly fertile young person having regular sex getting pregnant, it's not so clear cut.

Most young women aren't in situations where they can use condoms (as most aren't fully in control of how and when they have sex.) If they aren't offered any alternatives, what's the answer then, let them get pregnant and have their and their children's lives potentially blighted? I know it's shit that young women (and many adult women) don't have full control over their sexuality. It's absolutely wrong that our society allows this to happen and we should all be standing up and doing anything in our power to change that.

But, in the mean time, does that mean a whole generation of young women should suffer the abuse and exploitation of men AND be denied the opportunity at least to reduce their risk of pregnancy as a result, just to make what, a political point about how crap it is to live in a sexist society? Do they really have to end up as martyrs to the cause?

Just to be clear, I'm not a HCP. I was a nurse over 20 years ago and would be the first to point out the shortcomings of that profession and of the medical establishment that I chose to no longer be a part of. So, not everyone comes at this as a handmaiden to the medical establishment patriarchy.

I work for a feminist organisation with girls and young women in JUST this age group. We try and help them deal with those obstacles society puts in front of them - poverty, crap family lives, history of abuse, sexual harassment, peer pressure, sexualisation and those societal messages that tell them their only value is in being sexy and appealing to men, the "helping" institutions that have let them down, the adults who tell them they are worthless, all that. We try and help them understand how and why the wider "system" is sexist and unfair and help them deal with stuff so they stand the best chance of getting on in life, being the best they can be and not getting ground down. It's bloody hard work. Two of our 12 year olds announced last week they have "dates" tonight with 15 year old boys. I don't think either girl has started periods yet, but somehow, they think this is what they should be doing. We've got a helluva lot of work to do. And we have two teen parent projects as well.

[SardineQueen]

Are nurses not part of the medical profession? If they are prescribing surely they are? And diagnosing? Nursing duties have gone beyond "traditional" nursing for a long time now. I don't think that a person can say on the one hand that they are qualified and suitable to diagnose, prescribe and treat but on the other hand they are nothing to do with "the medical profession". Most people would get quite confused by that statement.

Also it is quite true that people and organisations involved in healthcare have some pretty shocking stories in the recent past and further back to do with taking risks with patients health, not telling them the whole story, experimenting on them and all the rest of it. I don't think Kritiq meant that every single HCP in the entire history of the world has always been dishonest with patients at all times and I don't think you did either TBH.

[SardineQueen]

Not heard that one piprabbit.

As far as I can tell the regime in the UK is that women are basically on hormones from puberty or thereabouts, to death. Bar a few years when they come off them to get pg and BF, during which times they aren't exactly in a hormonal steady-state either.

I'm not convinced anyone really knows the effects - possibly very subtle - of a lifetime on hormones.

[MsCorleone]

Basil what do you mean it's not about all me? You keep jumping around the issues and changing your mind what you are outraged about. You make a point, I respond, you ignore everything i've said and then get outraged about something else!

I actually have said numerous times that I agree with everyones points about women not being properly informed about the risks around contraceptives. I even said earlier that I have been on the receiving end of this myself.

I'm not outraged by your questioniung of the actions of HCP's because as i've said before you get good and bad in every profession. I am outraged by your constant sweeping statements based on what exactly?

"The medical profession has never been good at honesty and openness about risks and it has an unlovely history with regards to its treatment of women"
What never! really? I'm not part of the medical profession, i'm part of the nursing profession.

[piprabbit]

I thought that women were advised to only use hormonal contraception for a limited number of years (I was told a decade, but things have changed now that contraceptives use lower doses).
Does this mean that these girls will reach the age of 23 and have only limited contraceptive choices for the rest of their lives, because they chose to have the implant from such a young age?

[BasilRathbone]

Well quite SQ.

That's why I'm becoming ever so slightly irritated by this tone of outrage of any questioning of HCPs when it comes to dealing with women and girls' bodies.

[SardineQueen]

Weren't told they might need a general anaesthetic to have mirena removed.

I think most people have them out no problems. But still someone might have mentioned it as a risk, surely? Also the anxiety / depression thing given my history. Also part of the problems is that I have had 2 sections and not really laboured much at all, so my cervix is closed very tight. The gynae who examined me the other day said "they must have had a hell of a job getting it up there" - and that's true and it wasn't pleasant. But no-one suggested that as a woman who had not laboured / given birth vaginally, and had post natal depression/anxiety, maybe this wasn't the right contraceptive choice for me. It was recommended highly as just the ticket. Bad experiences with unsuitable hormonal contraception are common - there are squillions of threads on here about it. If adult women and HCPs can't get it right, then how does that even begin to work for teenagers?

[BasilRathbone]

Are you actually reading the posts from women saying they weren't told about the full side effects, weren't told that they needed a general anaesthetic to have the mirena coil removed, etc.?

Or are you too busy fulminating against the potential insults to your profession?

[BasilRathbone]

MsCorleoone can you try and get over your professional offence please. It's not about you.

I think feminists have every right to question the way the medical profession deals with contraception.

Grown women are not properly informed of the real risks of hormonal contraception.

The medical profession has never been good at honesty and openness about risks and it has an unlovely history with regards to its treatment of women.

Stop getting on your high horse about this, it's bloody irritating.

[SardineQueen]

Incidentally I don't appreciate your implication that I see matters of rape and sexual exploitation as simply a bit of bad behaviour on the part of men and boys.

I said this "It seems that in our society it is accepted that men and boys will behave badly / illegally / exploit / coerce when it comes to sex. " which is an entirely different thing.

[SardineQueen]

They aren't being arrested though, and punished, are they.