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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rape is worse when it happens to men

114 replies

AyeRobot · 28/01/2012 21:53

According to the New York Times

Luckily, there are some brilliant women around to help the NYT out

Yes, the Patriarchy hurts men too. Why can't they just say that? Then there could be some useful public debate about what to do about it.

OP posts:
SardineQueen · 29/01/2012 14:26

kickass girls get comments about how they were dressed, they must have led him on, being a prick-tease, were they friendly to him what did they expect etc.

It is awful for everyone.

vesuvia · 29/01/2012 14:27

ValarMorghulis wrote - "So men who get their case to court will receive a higher conviction case and be more readily believed."

Bearing in mind that the sexual history of female rape victims is often used in court to discredit the victim, and that the average man is supposed to be more sexually "active" that the average woman, I would be interested to learn more about how the sexual history of a male rape victim is dealt with in court by the defence lawyers of the alleged rapist. I'd also like to know how juries react to hearing about the male victim's previous sexual behaviour.

SardineQueen · 29/01/2012 14:30

Oh that's the other thing I was going to say

If a man who has been raped is demonstrably straight then I imagine his assault is taken very seriously. If he reports it.

If the victim is gay, or does not fit societies idea of what a "red blooded man" acts like / looks like, then I imagine he meets very similar problems to women with getting justice.

SardineQueen · 29/01/2012 14:31

Vesuvia if the victim is a gay man I would put money on the defence raising his sexual history if they can.

SardineQueen · 29/01/2012 14:33

You don't read much about men being raped in the papers do you. Or sexually assaulted. All the stories are about women and children being attacked.

I suspect that is to do with what the press think will interest people, what they themselves are squeamish about, this subconscious drive to maintain the status quo.

SweetGrapes · 29/01/2012 14:39

I didn't get the x vs x+1 much when reading the article. But my jaw dropped at what happened next - it's right at the end -
after his 3 hour ordeal, he got home and told his dad and brother and they went to the police and the man got arrested and later killed.
Can you see that scenario happening with a girl?

  1. He got home safe - was not murdered.
  2. Told his dad and brother
  3. They believed him.
  4. They took him to the police
  5. The police believed him and sought to take further action
  6. They actually arrested the guy
  7. He got killed.

Haven't read it again - so may have got it wrong. And don't agree with step 7 if it was a vigilante type thing.

But really think, if it was a girl instead, the story would have probably stopped at any of the above steps. And I bet what he was wearing never came into the question.
Don't really think anything comes out of playing top trumps. My only point is I assumed he had never mentioned it for years and years and then came to end and my jaw dropped!!

WidowWadman · 29/01/2012 15:57

Valar"but I think the boys themselves think its great. "

I guess that's the stereotype boys get battered over the head with. It's no different to "she asked for it"/"led him on"/"what did she expect".

ValarMorghulis · 29/01/2012 16:00

Sorry Widow, I hadn't meant that as a generalisation of all young boys who are preyed on by older women, just the lads that I know locally.
The trend makes me cringe. To t he point where i overheard one young boy being asked "have you not done xxx yet? whats the matter with you, she's well up for it"

It made me feel sick that it was some sort of expected right of passage for the youths of my town.

PacificDogwood · 29/01/2012 16:00

Why does it have to be 'bad' vs 'worse' rape ffs??

Rape/sexual assault is a hideous thing to befall anybody - male, female, child, adult.
I found the whole flavour of that article extremely distasteful and it reminded me of some of the 'my MC/stillbirth/bereavement was worse than yours' discussions I sometimes come across.

I totally agree that the opinion expressed in the article that men somehow suffer more due to their 'musculinity' having been attacked, suggests that women who have always been raped simply have to accept that from time to time this happens to a woman. Jesus wept. And because women are 'used to' the concept of female rape, it just cannot be as bad for them...

You'd think we'd moved on a bit from when we lived in caves...

And I love the whole 'handmaiden' thing re the author - having noseyed about that radfem website, I think I may be a radfem. Who knew ShockGrin!

AnyFucker · 29/01/2012 16:04

I only realised that fact about myself relatively recently, PW

at the age of mid-40's! Smile

PacificDogwood · 29/01/2012 16:15

Oh yes, AF, sadly you and I are of the same kinda vintage, but I have to be honest and say I am enjoying the Wise Old Hag role. Muchly.
Imagine having to be young and with it again - shudder

AnyFucker · 29/01/2012 16:20

Yeah, that fills me with dread too, PW

I feel for my tenage dd and my ds who isn't far behind. For them, I worry. Not for myself.

AnyFucker · 29/01/2012 16:20

teenage

Dworkin · 29/01/2012 16:31

FFS I'm not saying that some rape is worse than others. I'm not Ken Clarke.

What I'm saying is that pregnancy resulting from rape has an ADDED physical damage that others may not have, plus the psychological damage that goes with this in either having to have an abortion or being forced to bring the pregnancy to full term. Handmaiden indeed.

All rape is bad. It's just that for some there are added complications that have more of an impact on the victim.

And heterosexual men who are raped do not have their integrity brought into question.

PacificDogwood · 29/01/2012 16:41

Dworkin, I hadn't been referred to your post, but to the originally liked NYT article.

AF, god help me when my lot enter their teenaged - I am ^guaranteed to be menopausal by then. I worry about them to.

PacificDogwood · 29/01/2012 16:42

teenaged years - sorry, massive distraction here

WidowWadman · 29/01/2012 16:48

Dworkin - how about heterosexual men who end up in situations where they have sex without really being up for it - through drunkenness/misinterpreted signals etc. It's not only women this happens too, I know more than one man who has experienced it, and hasn't felt particularly great about it either.

Any man who would report such a situation undoubtedly would have their integrity questioned as much.

BasilRathbone · 29/01/2012 16:52

But his integrity wouldn't be questioned if he said he had been raped by another man.

Which is far more likely.

WidowWadman · 29/01/2012 16:54

But is it really far more likely that a heterosexual man gets raped by another man than ending up in the situation I described above?

BasilRathbone · 29/01/2012 17:11

Yes, it is.

The situation above is vanishingly rare. Unless a woman is an out and out nutter, she doesn't have a sense of entitlement which many otherwise "normal" men have. If a man kisses a woman and fondles her nipples, she doesn't generally feel that she has a god-given right to jump on his dick irrespective of whether he's up for that or not. Also, even if she does have such an unusual (in a woman) sense of entitlement, most women can't actually physically accomplish such a thing, because a man who doesn't want that, can generally stop her very easily because he's bigger and stronger than her.

That strength and size of course, makes no difference if the psychological situation affects the man's ability to make use of his strength and size; but in most cases, men don't feel psychologically the same as most women would in that situation - many women do feel that once things have got to a certain point, they have "signed up" for penetration and they have no right to get out of it now, even though they may not want to have penetrative sex. And men in that situation, don't feel that if they come right out and say that they don't fancy it anymore, they may end up being attacked and far worse may happen to them, if they don't go through a bit of reluctant penetrative sex.

I think the most reliable gauge of whether men are more likely to be raped by women or by other men, is to ask the helplines which counsel male victims of rape, what percentage of calls are from men needing support because they've been sexually assaulted in this way by women, and what percentage are from men who need support because they have been raped by other men. I know where I'd place my bet.

WidowWadman · 29/01/2012 17:15

Basil so I just chanced upon an anomaly and it's a huge coincidence that I've met a few guys who happened to end up in such situations? Or were they lying to me. Or is it a case of you just don't believing guys who tell such stories?

BasilRathbone · 29/01/2012 17:20

Why don't you phone the rape crisis lines for men and find out WW.

SinicalSanta · 29/01/2012 17:25

I would think for MOST people part of the buzz of sex is that you are giving pleasure and that the other party finds you attractive.
I would also think that women feel this more strongly - It's fed to us after all that being desirable is such an important part of womanhood.
For that reason I would say it's less likely that a woman simply seeks the physical sensation of a penis, she also seeks the egoboost (for want of a better word) of a man fancying her.

So a woman forcing/coercing a man out of a sense of entitlement wouldn't be as common - but perhaps being 'so devastatingly sexy he couldn't resist' would.

I'm aware that raises many questions - but just my musings on reading the thread.

SardineQueen · 29/01/2012 17:34

I think there is some deliberate "grey area" stuff coming in here, to try and muddy the waters.

Women do not tend to report sexual encounters where they have had sex even though they weren't really "up for it", any more than men do.

When people get drunk and have sex that they are not really up for they tend to regret it the next morning and promise themselves not to get that pissed again / not to go home with that person again. They don't tend to go to the police, whether they are male or female.

WidowWadman · 29/01/2012 17:37

SQ fair point