Rape is worse when it happens to men

[AyeRobot]

According to the New York Times

Luckily, there are some brilliant women around to help the NYT out

Yes, the Patriarchy hurts men too. Why can't they just say that? Then there could be some useful public debate about what to do about it.

I loved this comment on the Radicalhub article:

Of course, the Handmaiden of the Patriarchy who wrote the article doesn?t bother to define ?sense of masculinity.? She probably thinks everyone will get her point right away, but I have some questions. Does she mean that men who have been raped suddenly feel they can no longer splash their cheeks with a subtle yet rugged aftershave? Do they lose interest in tying the perfect half-Windsor so as to make a good impression on their date? Do they perhaps stop doing crunches, because they no longer care about having six-pack abs?

No. By ?sense of masculinity,? she means these men?s sense of being in charge of their own bodies, of being autonomous, of not being sexual prey, of being able to defend themselves and ensure their own safety. It?s their sense of being human that?s been challenged. But by conflating that with masculinity, she tacitly admits that women aren?t supposed to see themselves the same way men do ? as fully enfranchised, adult human beings.

In case Ms. HOTP wanders over here, I?ve written the female version: ?But women who have been raped also face a challenge to their sense of personal autonomy and authority over their own bodies. Often, this occurs after they have already endured years of less extreme, but still serious challenges to the same in the form of sexual harassment at work, in school, and on the street, and in the form of having their right to say ?no? ignored by unwanted but persistent suitors, some of whom turn into stalkers. Additionally, they must deal with idiots who are unwilling to acknowledge that bodily autonomy matters as much to women as it does to men, and in the same way.?

SQ the RadicalHub article explains it - it's the way the NYT article frames it as 'women suffer x but men suffer x +1'

Widow said, "But if campaigns concentrated on fighting the rape of people rather than fighting the rape of women I think that'd be better."

I agree to a certain extent. For example, it is infuriating that so many public awareness campaigns focus not just on women as victims, but that women are at least partly culpable if they have been drinking, taking drugs, get in an unlicensed cab, etc. In my view, it would be more beneficial to have campaigns that aren't just focussed on rape but more for people to "look out for their friends," who could be at risk of all sorts of things from assault to alcohol poisoning.

Campaigns specifically about rape should target perpetrators/potential perpetrators (and that's blokes,) but frankly, I don't think those make any difference. Men who rape (whether the victims are men, women or children) don't believe they are doing anything that wrong, so won't believe the posters or adverts are anything to do with them.

However, it's important to realise that misogyny is inherent within the act of rape. Straight and gay male and transexual victims are often viewed as "proxy women," (i.e. humans of less value) and raped for pretty well the same reasons women are raped. It's exerting power and control over a person the perpetrator sees as of less value, whose wishes are secondary to their own and using the sex act as a means of exerting this (often with other things like violence and demeaning language.)

For that reason, it IS important to set rape within the context of a patriarchal society that values some people less than others.

Women of child bearing age face pregnancy as a result of rape men dont. In some countries they have to carry the pregnancy to birth. That is why it's worse for women.

Plus women have to prove they were raped, against the backdrop that she is perceived to be in a perpetual state of consent. That's why it's harder for women to be believed. She must never have lied, not had a drink, not be wearing inappropriate clothing and be pratically virginal.

Men don't have this problem when it comes to rape unless, perhaps, they are gay. I don't mean to paint believeability in such black and white terms, there are grey areas, but generally men's integrity is never called into question as much as womens.

The responses are different know , a man being raped is often mocked having been 'made someones bitch now' I have heard this first hand.

I suppose what I mean to say is the response is very different.

kritiq - another thread on this recently linked to a Canadian campaign with posters that said something along the lines of 'don't be a rapist', exploding rape myths and telling men they shouldn't assume a drunk woman is consenting. Apparently there had been a 10% fall in reported rapes as a result.

and you think the kind of person who would say that would be sympathetic to a female rape victim? I doubt it.

Well actually that radical feminist hub points out the reality of that archimedes - that a man who has been raped, has been "made someone's bitch now" whereas a woman who has been raped, has always been someone's bitch, so no biggie.

Dworkin - are you saying that rape is less bad for infertile women, or women on long acting contraception as they don't face that risk?

The prospect of women being forced to carry babies that were conceived through rape and give birth is pretty horrifying.

Also the risks to health associated with pregnancy and childbirth are not to be sniffed at.

In some parts of the world a woman might survive a rape but not survive giving birth to the baby conceived because of the rape.

These are not things that can be overlooked IMO.

Having said that, and although I understand the point of the critics to the article, the article itself didn't seem too bad to me, I didn't read it and feel terribly angry (like I do so much of the time).

In some parts of the world women who have been raped are deemed to have broken the law and are punished accordingly.

I don't think the same rules apply to men who are raped (although in those societies I doubt anyone finds out - which is bad).

These patriarchal ideas work for nobody, and for women and children least of all.

I'm still very wary of the line that counters the "rape is worse for men" with the, "oh no, rape is worse for women." No, men don't get pregnant as a result of rape, but neither can all women - for example post-menopausal women (so does that mean rape isn't as bad for old women as it is for young, fertile ones, or not as bad if the man uses a condom? - - see where this line of argument could go? - it's worse for a straight man than a gay man, worse for a nun than a prostitute, worse if a stranger than your husband, blah blah.)

The fact that a man raping another man perceives his victim as "his bitch" (i.e. an objectified, inferior being, a hole for shagging,) is surely a function of a society that colludes with the oppression and exploitation of women, women proxies and other groups believed to be of less value than those who are closest in identity to the people at the top of the social, economic and political "pile."

But, I don't think coming down to the personal experience level and saying that rape is inherently worse for this kind of person than that kind of person fails to value the individual's own experience. I think it actually could weaken the argument and detract from setting rape within the wider context of patriarchal values and systems.

In some parts of the world women are raped to punish men associated with them, for their crimes. It's horrifying. So a man rapes a woman. Instead of him being punished directly, the punishment is that "his" woman (wife / sister / daughter) is raped in return. There was a very famous case in India where a woman spoke out about what had been done to her as a result of a crime her brother committed.

Certainly there is a dynamic in some places where women and children are property and everything flows from that.

Sorry the case I was thinking of was in Pakistan, not India.

[http://www.indianexpress.com/oldStory/5325/ here]]

Reading stories like this were one of the things that made me become a feminist. It's just so mind-bogglingly awful.

Sorry that last paragraph was a bit garbled - meant to say something more like, "But, I don't think coming down to the personal experience level is the best way to go," or something like that, then start a new sentence.

(Photoediting at same time as posting comments, probably not a great idea :) )

I was getting two cases mixed up I should say. There was a very famous case in India, where a woman spoke out, but the story I meant was a different one in Pakistan.

@widowwadman

As someone who is no longer fertile I don't have the ADDED risk of becoming pregnant. However my daughters are fertile and none of them are on long term contraception. Yes the outcome in terms of possible physical damage is greater for them. An unwanted pregnancy, in my view, is physical damage. And I was infertile in my 20s for a short spell and felt much safer.

I felt very safe going about the place when I was visibly pregnant, dworkin.

Funny, isn't it.

Having to deal with an unwanted pregnancy resulting from a rape, makes the individual case for the pregnant raped woman worse, but I don't think you can then extrapolate it to claim that on a population base rape is worse for all women because some women have to deal with additional adverse consequences. Rape poses the risk of serious health implications at any rate (eg HIV and other STDs), so whilst unwanted pregnancy and the connected risks and problems is a serious health implication which cannot affect men, I don't think that this can be used to make the argument that rape for women is worse.

Not least, because you could use it to tell a woman who suffers after a rape without falling pregnant that it can't be all that awful, as she doesn't have to deal with pregnancy. And that'd be truly horrific.

In some places women and girls are forced to marry their rapists, or are murdered, or are ostracised.

It's not a case of "worse" or whatever, but simply seeing and understanding the entire range of consequences that happen around the world. In places where women and girls are property, rape can mean you will be executed. That can't be ignored.

I am astounded that someone feels it necessary to make a competition of woe between rape victims. It is absurd in the extreme.
to be sexually violated is one of the most traumatic things anyone will deal with, irrelevant to the gender of the victim.

My only thought would be that as a male victim there is likely to be more physical "evidence" of the rape. And the idea of the rape being an act of control and power rather than lust is more easily conceived by a jury than it is for a female victim.

The misogyny of society runs so deep as to be more likely to believe that the "poor man" was confused by the womans behaviour, that she had dressed provocatively or changed her mind "beyond the point of return"
Whilst a man couldn't possibly have wanted to be sodomised as the idea is oh so very unnatural.

So men who get their case to court will receive a higher conviction case and be more readily believed.

And whilst that may bring a modicum of comfort, that does not wipe he event from memory. So it certainly doesn't undo the trauma of the initial rape.

thus making the only difference between male and female rape the statistics for "justice"

I have read that, in some parts of the world, governments imprison women for adultery if the woman has been raped by a man who is not her husband.

Do those governments punish male rape victims in a similar way? I have not heard of any cases of a male rape victim being imprisoned for adultery or executed for homosexuality.

I'll read the articles in a minute, but just thought that something I heard this week fits here.

I friend of work told us that her son, when he was 15 was raped by a woman of 35.

The woman did not go to prison, and my friend was told comments such as 'it's every boy's dream, he must be delighted' and 'well his penis worked, so he must have enjoyed it' and 'it wasn't really rape if he took part'.

From that perspective, I should imagine that his experience was worse than the same for a 15 year old girl.

However, in general I don't think anyone should EVER play 'top trumps' with trauma. Victims are victims, and no matter how much we fail to empathise, we should sympathise and support.

vesuvia - yes under Sharia law you can only claim rape if the rape was also witnessed by two independent MALE witnesses. So many women who claim to e raped are judged as adulterers.

Kickass - the situation you describe isn't technically rape. It is sexual assault. A rape involves the penetration of a penis. I know it is just a technicality.
There is a woman locally to me who seems to have worked her way through all the local lads. She has them all in her home, buys them cigarettes and alcohol and has slept with them all. Some are as young as 14.
She was pregnant by one lad. He was 15.
I cannot understand why these lads parents have not made a complaint to the police about her, but I think the boys themselves think its great. They don't realise how damaging such confusing early sexual experiences can be later in life.

Valar I wonder if only men who have been raped under quite extreme circumstances (a lot of injuries etc) report their rapes, and that is why there is a difference in conviction rates.

Like how conviction rates for women being raped have reduced as numbers of reports have gone up.

I just wish attitudes could change to all of this across the board.