women and muscularity

[MitchierInge]

anyone interested in a sort of amorphous chat about this, from the bodybuilding competitions (bikinis and high heels) to women weight training generally?

I would like a pound of lean muscle for everyone who has warned me it is not attractive in a woman when:

1. I am not attractive anyway (although obviously can't help sort of wanting to be but not to extent that I will actually get a hair style etc)
2. I think it is attractive, perhaps not the bulked up by steroids look but healthy athleticism definitely is
3. What does being attractive have to do with strengthening your body? Or is that what they mean, strength is unattractive?

Femininity = weakness and vulnerability, therefore having a strong, athletic body = unfeminine and therefore 'unattractive'. Strong, athletic women can fight back more effectively and that wouldn't do.

It's crap isn't it.

but there is approval for lifting lighter weights more often or training in a more sort of gentle toning way and real horror at use of heavier weights and training the same way as a man

although you are quite obviously not going to turn into a man, and you'd have to do something about your naturally low testosterone to develop anything like a manly shape?

Muscular strength is regarded by many (most?) people as a defining characteristic of masculinity. Society defines femininity as the opposite of how men have defined masculinity. Therefore, femininity is left with muscular weakness. Females are supposed to be feminine.

Until that changes, I think this arbitrary assignment of characteristics to each sex dictates that muscular strength will inevitably be perceived by many people as unattractive in females.

Muscular strength is healthy and good for everyone. Weakness often leads to dependence, which of course suits men who want to control women.

My 17yo dd is a very serious rower (competition standard), with classic rowers build, ie tall (5' 11") and sliim but with very defined muscles.

Several of my 14yo ds's schoolfriends attend the same rowing club, and apparently they all have massive crushes on my dd, partly cos she's gorgeous (obviously), but mainly because she can pull some serious weight/distance stats, and is much faster and stronger than they are.

So there is hope.

More generally, I think if you asked opinions on this (ie women and muscularity) from men who are involved in training or athletics or other sport themselves, you would probably get different responses than if you asked a bunch of averagely unfit inactive blokes. The unfit blokes find it threatening, I reckon, whereas the sporty ones are more likely to be impressed.

yeah I think that is true, it was a man who was saying there was no need for men and women to train or diet differently in pursuit of muscularity (although other less fit men have said otherwise) your basic shape is what it is

it's also strange how many people seem to think you will instantly morph into that extreme muscle bound state that takes years of dedication and steroid abuse to attain, too much work for me probably

I think there's no doubt that different exercise types will affect your body shape, and I guess most women would favour exercise that will make you strong and lean without adding loads of bulk.

But that's a cultural aesthetic preference, isn't it.

weight lifting like a man doesn't actually add lots of bulk though, it's a sort of unfounded fear really, strong and lean is exactly what it does (I live in hope anyway)

(you'd need chemical assistance with bulk if you wanted it - and I think that is interesting too)

"strength is unattractive"

Yes, it is unattractive in a woman. Didn't you know that? Best thing for a woman is to be small, unobtrusive and weak. Think 'mouse'.

I loved being lean and muscly. I felt utterly invincible and so energetic. So obviously dreadfully unfeminine.

I think if there wasn't such ingrained prejudice against athletic, muscular women, more men would admit to finding them attractive. Plenty do.

I have always felt more self-confident at times in my life when I am leaner and "harder". I also love it when I find out I can do something physical (lifting certain-sized objects at work) that I couldn't do before.

I'm not very muscly yet, but objectively I am 'small', insofar as need small clothes and have smallish measurements and not likely to become very much bigger as a result of weight lifting (which I suspect is a fad but am fascinated at moment). Perhaps my vanity is wounded and I was hoping to become more attractive not even less!

It's the strength of feeling, the opposition to the idea that surprised me a bit, and the frequency of 'but it's so unattractive' when I do very little about being attractive anyway (lost cause!). I wouldn't dream of saying 'don't take up cycling, big calves are unattractive' to anyone.

Although it could be that people get sick of my obsessive interests and me going on about them all the time.

You aren't bonkers. I remember a girl in the university hall I worked in who was most vocal about how she had given up football because she didn't want big thighs, and didn't we know how important femininity is?

Big thighs that help you run well, and also don't wobble when you run up the stairs...

i would love to have some muscle, and have been training for strength for a couple of years,

its funny because at the gym the men who coached me kept saying "dont worry - you wont bulk up" and words to that effect

when in reality i would actually like to bulk up a bit, i want Madonnas arms!

its not happened though, but i train for strength rather than toning.

When i did step 3 times a week I was told 'Eww! If that's what step does to your legs I don't think I'll bother'. When I had the temerity to wear a shortish skirt to work. They were muscular and firm, not flabby I might add!

it's like your body is not your own

I know this is a general thing and not just about sculpting muscles but it irritates me. Am ALLOWED to want to shed some body fat if I want to, whether randoms think I need to or not. If I wanted to I could gain fat. Or muscle. It is up to ME.

I don't think Madonna's arms are bulky anyway?

Wish could remember name of recently in news 'former glamour model turned body builder' but I was fascinated by her physique (not the implants though). She looked like an anatomy lesson.

That is me doing some objectification and slightly letting the side down a bit, sorry.

I think it's interesting where cultural aesthetic preference becomes politically promoted ideal, e.g. ancient Athenian torso-defining body armour or Soviet poster imagery. There are twists and turns of gender identity that can be quite surprising to some modern eyes.

I think if women can deconstruct, they can be women.

I am quite strong physically and like it.

Jodie Marsh, OP.

oh thank you, yes that's her

what do you think?

not read thread but wanted to quickly post this about olympics and female boxers

may have to wear skirts to distinguish them from men

I find it hard to distinguish Jodie Marsh from her tattoo-work.

Her body is certainly a project that is pulling away from the former 'glamour' construct.

But it's still very much a public project.

Interesting link, Sardine. What next, compulsory small pants underneath?

As a digression, I actually saw Prince Naseem box in his heyday and he was wearing a leopard-print skirt thing. That was about his flamboyance and his choice as a money-drawing elite sportsman, I presumed.

But surely in the real world, i.e. outside of the media pages, strong, athletic women are seen as attractive by everyone?

Read thread now, good thread

The boxing thing is telling isn't it. Women are allowed to box now, but they must wear a skirt while doing so. Just in case. Just in case of what, I don't know. Just in case viewers don't understand that they are to look out for eye candy as well as boxing skills? Just in case some people at first glance don't notice they are women? Because it's fun to have short skirts flying up and down? Who can say...

Strong is good. Can't stand women who stand around feebly waiting for a bloke to lift anything heavier than a brick.

Treasure your muscles - I was always fit and strong. The one thing I hate as I have got older and have arthritis in my knees and fingers (not bad but enough to restrict range of movement and give some pain) is diminution in physical strength, no matter how fit I am or how much training I do. However, without years of training decrepitude would likely have set in much earlier

So flex those muscles, enjoy being strong... you lose it soon enough.

I'm not sure that swapping one prescribed body image (which requires hard work and is not attainable 'naturally')for another is a good thing...