women and muscularity

[MitchierInge]

anyone interested in a sort of amorphous chat about this, from the bodybuilding competitions (bikinis and high heels) to women weight training generally?

I would like a pound of lean muscle for everyone who has warned me it is not attractive in a woman when:

1. I am not attractive anyway (although obviously can't help sort of wanting to be but not to extent that I will actually get a hair style etc)
2. I think it is attractive, perhaps not the bulked up by steroids look but healthy athleticism definitely is
3. What does being attractive have to do with strengthening your body? Or is that what they mean, strength is unattractive?

i think female bodybuilding sits a little strangely with most people because traditionally the male ideal is visible musculature and the female ideal is not.

male bodybuilding is taking the male ideal to the extreme, but female bodybuilding is subverting the female ideal.

i always laugh though at women who are scared of 'getting muscles like arnie' by doing a little bit of sport because the chances of that are really so, so slim.. and i've not met a man who doesn't find jessica ennis attractive

Madonna famously got hammered in the press for looking muscular and at the time I talked with people IRL who shared that view.

I don't know what the reaction of the public was to fatima whitbread on I'm a sleb - anyone know? I thought she was great

The boxing thing linked earlier - ok let women box if they must but for gods sake make them wear skirts

i think OP has a point, personally.

Thinking about it, when you have female sports people who do not meet general ideas of feminitity or attractiveness, they generally get the piss taken out of them, people say "is that a bloke hahahha", and all that stuff.

When women are good at a sport and meet conventional standards of attractiveness they are feted. Much more than women who are less good looking who beat them.

I don't think this is quite so stark with male sports people. Thinking about it, although good looking ones do get noticed and snapped up by ad agencies, I'm sure I have seen people like wayne rooney gracing adverts for stuff. And I'm sure people won't argue about whether he meets conventional standards of male good looks, and he has dodgy morals to boot.

I suppose my concern is that the revering of the muscular is another example of women's naturally soft, squishy bodies being rejected.

Why is it natural for a woman to have a sofft squishy body? Most us might do in the 21st western world but thT is no more natural than the opposite.

it's like your body is not your own

Very true. Whatever state a woman's body is in it seems to be considered public property and as such fair game for people to comment on.

"women's exercise goals ALWAYS seem to be defined by the end result of how you will look, not what you will be able to DO."

Yup.

You know, if that were exclusive to women, you'd have a point. But all those mirrors in gyms. I've seen the guys preening themselves in the mirror when they think no-one's looking. They aren't thinking about what those weights will enable them to DO, they're as vain as they come.

But the mirrors are for them. So they can look at themselves and judge their bodies. Not for the eyes of others IYSWIM.

And weight training for women is really important - resistance training helps keep bone density up as we age.

Guardian article

"Why is it natural for a woman to have a sofft squishy body? Most us might do in the 21st western world but thT is no more natural than the opposite."

Really? Women aren't naturally meant to have squashy breasts for feeding and a squishy stomach from having children?

If the muscular ideal was inclusive of these attributes, I think I'd have less of a problem with it; as it is, it seems that the idea is for a muscular body to be 'hard'; perhaps I am wrong in my perception of that?

Men have squishy bits too

If you are into serious weight training with the aim of competition then you'll have very low body fat and a 'hard' body. If you are just doing some weight training then you'll have fat on top of the muscle.

By the end of the summer I have 'hard' muscly legs from all the hours out cycling but my tummy stays squishy . And if you're not doing weights at a very high level, you''l find your breasts stay soft but look 'perkier' as the muscles behind/around them pull them up.

Love the Guardian article. And it took me back to my university days. There were two weights rooms in the sports centre - one with MTV, lycra-clad poseurs and machines, and one with large blokes lifting free weights in near silence. A (male) friend took me along to the free weights room, and I found it a much more pleasant environment to work out in. To my (pleasant) surprise, the huge men were respectful and welcoming, the peace and quiet made exercise an almost meditative experience, and the free weights provided a much better workout. (I also don't get on in aerobics classes - I'm always the one lunging up and to the right as everyone else bobs down to the left).

Soft and squishy is an interesting issue. I think perhaps both sexes come in a variety of body shapes, and it's probably quite difficult being a soft squishy man, just as it's difficult being a muscular woman.

I had an interesting chat with my DM (who was a painter) once about Leonardo's female nudes and the theory that because of his homosexuality he painted muscular men then put breasts on them as an afterthought. I suggested that if he used peasant women as models, it's quite likely that after a lifetime working in fields they were muscular.

I think it comes down to muscularity in women being threatening. If a woman is muscular she has to also demonstrate overblown sexuality to mitigate it, otherwise she is ripe for ridicule.

Look at that bloody Fat Fighters programme. Both the female trainers on the programme are all sex sex sex. One is a dominatrix and the other is a 'princess' ffs. They're clearly both impressively fit women, but it seems that TV has to undermine that by turning them into sexual stereotypes.

I remember that Guardian article NarkyPuffin. Yy to the sense of power and achievement when you can do a push up/pull up. Tremendous.

I can also see tether's point - there is always something wrong with women's bodies, isn't there? They're always compelled to change them. However, I do think that if that change is self-motivated, by a desire to open up your world by being fitter, stronger, able to jump higher or hang upside down or whatever, all power to you. But either way the first step is an eradication of this ceaseless fucking visual critique of women's bodies.

I'm recommending to all and sundry the Nike Training Club app. Hardcore no-nonsense exercises demonstrated by seriously impressive but not sexed up women.

I'm lost when we start thinking about what is and isn't natural. It's not natural to menstruate every month as a result of not being pregnant every year of your reproductive life. Its not natural to live as long as we do. It's not natural to sit on chairs. Where do you stop?

This is an interesting gallery of sporting body types - huge differentials illustrate function over appearance.

I'm not an advocate of the natural- I was just responding to the assertion that muscular bodies were as natural as squishy ones.

It seems as if the 'muscular bodies' people are extolling the virtues of are inclusive of squishy bits?

I think any body shape touted as preferential over another is at odds with the de-objectification of women's bodies IYSWIM.

I think I see what you mean. This 'extolling and revering' is a defence, I think, against the claims that muscularity is unattractive and unwelcome in women.

That athletes' gallery is absolutely fascinating!

But if you say it's natural for a woman to be soft and squishy you are restricting her to her reproductive ability. Most women are only pregnant and bring for a decade or so. If it's 'natural' to be soft and squishy because you are having babies what about the rest of your life, when you might like to be fit, active and muscular. Women are more than carriers of babies.

This is a thread about how muscularity in worn is frowned upon. Some of you seem to be saying it's ok to dislike women's bodies being muscular because in being so you downgrade the 'natural' state of women as makers of babies.

Which seems a strange state of affairs.

Nowhere have I said it's ok to dislike muscular bodies. I am just uncomfortable with promoting them as another 'ideal' which is at odds with one of the primary biological functions of a woman's body.

All body shapes should be acceptable. One should not be promoted over another.

Hmmm

Thinking out loud

In secondary schools there is a problem with girls continuing in sport and general physical stuff. And in adult women as well.

Problems like - not wanting to go swimming - long hair takes an age to dry and it's all a pain (guilty as charged)
Sweating makes make-up run and makes you look red which is no good
Jumping up and down or running about makes your breasts bounce around which lots of girls and women feel self conscious about
You can't just suddenly decide to start running about if you've got heels on (well some women can but YKWIM)
You're not going to cycle to work for the hair / makeup / heels reasons
And - the OPs point - being strong and muscular is seen as unfeminine

There is a huge problem in the UK with female participation in sport. I look at my DDs who are 4 and 2 and both joyously vigorous and revelling in their physicality. And I know that it is more likely that this will stop for them than it will for their male counterparts. That makes me sad. It is fun and heatlhy to be active, strong, bendy, whatever suits your body type and makes you feel good. Celebrating strong female bodies is to my mind a better and more healthy thing than the other images we aspire to? Although I take the point that it can just be turned into yet another unattainable fashion to taunt females with. But that aside - fit and strong is good - yes? Not for how you look, but for how you feel.

I haven't read this thread as promoting a muscular body over other types, more just asking why there isn't really space for muscular female bodies to exist without being ridiculed or sneered at, or for women to appease other peoples idea of femininity when they show physical strength.

yeah, what you said giyadas

although I was a bit freaked out by brief online looks at the competitive world of female body building

SQ that's all very true, my daughter (nearly 13) and her friends have a constant struggle to use the bit of playground space set aside to play football. The boys take over the whole space for the whole of break, every day and steal the girls' football. The playground supervisor said 'the boys were there first' although of course the children all spill out of the classroom at the same time. They went to the head of year who just shrugged, she might as well have said 'boys will be boys'.

The girls have asked for it to brought up in assembly but I bet it will be in a very indirect 'be considerate of others' way. I really want to go and talk to the head of year or write to her but my daughter would never forgive me.

I think that there is a feminist discussion to be had about why women don't like muscles. There is definitely an issue with women not wanting to develop muscles as they fear that they will become unattractive to men and end up with "thunder thighs" or too broad shoulders etc. I coach women rowers and and a numbet of them have expressed this worry (thankfully more don't care and some are proud of their muscles). Now the fact is that the amount and type of training that they do will not result in the type of body they seem to fear but they are aware that a woman's worth isjudged by her looks which is sad. Look at the comments that were made about Rebecca Adlington. The woman is practically a God winning 2 gold medals in 2 tough events. Very rare feat, but no, comments have to be made about her looks.

Body image for women is a massive issue, gleefully perpetuated by the media. As MildlyNarkyPuffin said a woman's body is seen to be public property. I am also in agreement with ClothesofSand with regards simply replacing the "size zero" type of ideal with another one.

(some lovely statues on BBC 4 now)