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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

misandry doesn't exist

517 replies

MitchierInge · 06/01/2012 10:14

not in a sort of homologous (if that's the word?) way to misogyny anyway - society just isn't that evolved yet

OP posts:
TunipTheVegemal · 07/03/2012 13:53

'In my 40 year lifetime I have never met a woman who has been raped.'

What a ridiculous claim.
It says more about you than about the prevalence of rape, I fear.
Did you ask them all? Do you think rape victims wear a badge?

FrothyDragon · 07/03/2012 13:59

That's funny, Sahara.. I run out of fingers counting the women I know who've been abused, either sexually, physically, mentally, psychologically...

I know several women who've admitted being raped. Only two people in real life know the full extent of what I've been through. We don't tend to go shouting it from the rooftops, to anyone who'll listen...

Beachcomber · 07/03/2012 14:24

The only people I have told about sexual assault have been feminists. Because I knew they would listen, understand and not minimize my distress.

A recurring theme I find.

TunipTheVegemal · 07/03/2012 14:26

I've been assuming she means no-one has ever volunteered the information to Sahara, but perhaps it's not that at all - perhaps they told her and she unilaterally decided not to believe them.

SaharaMerchant · 07/03/2012 14:34

'I've been assuming she means no-one has ever volunteered the information to Sahara, but perhaps it's not that at all - perhaps they told her and she unilaterally decided not to believe them'

Oh don't be daft, what a thing to say.

BeriBlue · 07/03/2012 14:38

'In my 40 year lifetime I have never met a woman who has been raped.'

How did you know? Have you asked every single one you've met..?!

TunipTheVegemal · 07/03/2012 14:41

Why is it stupid? Please explain how you know that no woman you have ever met has ever been raped.

TunipTheVegemal · 07/03/2012 14:42

apologies, I mean why is it daft?

SinicalSanta · 07/03/2012 15:38

How they hell do you know?
They'd want to know you very well before they'd confide in you.
And if they do know you very well they might decide not to trust you, for reasons that may or may not have anything to do with the attitudes displayed on this thread.

SaharaMerchant · 07/03/2012 16:11

I know you all want to believe I'm some woman hating harpie, sadly I'm not, not at all.

I said you were daft because why on earth, if one of my friends confided in me that she was raped, would I not believe her.

In RL I am extremely approachable and care very much about my female friends, and they have confided in me about all kinds of issues over the years.

I have not discussed with them the views I have wrt feminism very simply because feminism just does not crop up in our discussions.

I withdrew my post because I realised almost immediately that the message I was trying to convey would be lost, and that you would focus entirely on one very small aspect of it, which indeed you did.

I couldn't ask the mods to chop a bit out of my post so I simply removed it. No-one has commented at all about the rest wrt the future.

I expect that that is probably because you all know that is exactly where we are headed. Feminism today does not represent the vast majority of womens views, in fact more and more women are speaking out against it, because they can see where it's going.

VictorGollancz · 07/03/2012 16:29

So you removed it because we unreasonably latched onto one aspect of your post? And not because you sounded immensely foolish? Uh-huh.

If I refer back to my 'anyone with eyes' audience, I think it's fairly plain that we aren't 'post' anything and in fact Natasha Walter will cheerfully admit that a) she was first in the charge to sound the death knell for feminism in the 90s and b) that she was wholly wrong in ways she never expected.

Can I have some evidence of this mass of women rejecting or being 'post' feminism, please? Given that there's loads of them, it shouldn't be too hard.

On the other hand, I give you Natasha Walter, plenty of other feminist writers who never sounded the death knell in the first place, feminist blogs mushrooming all over the shop, OBJECT, Men Against Pornography...

Where is feminism going, anyway?

TunipTheVegemal · 07/03/2012 16:30

You weren't just talking about close friends though were you, you were talking about everyone you'd ever met.
I don't know why you feel like you have a right never to be suspected of disbelieving rape victims, when you posted something that you couldn't possibly know (ie that you'd never met a rape victim) and tried to use that to discredit the statistic.
Helpful tip: if you go around saying stuff that is anti-woman, people will inevitably wonder if you hold other anti-woman views.

TunipTheVegemal · 07/03/2012 16:34

How many weeks was Caitlin Moran in the bestseller lists? I see she's still in the top 100 at Amazon.

And all these sellout feminist conferences and marches that get bigger all the time.... And all the new local feminism groups.

I'm seeing a lot more women embracing feminism than rejecting it right now.

StewieGriffinsMom · 07/03/2012 17:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Beachcomber · 07/03/2012 17:11

Is anybody else reading "because they can see where it's going....." in the manner of a drama loaded film trailer voice over?

It is just so ominous isn't it, all this protesting about being women's refuges closing down due to lack of funds and marches supporting the right of women to walk freely down public streets? There are not enough Hmm faces in the whole of the internet.

TunipTheVegemal · 07/03/2012 17:14

Well the feminist government is planning to take everyone's children away Beach, that F4J poster the other day said so.

Beachcomber · 07/03/2012 18:39

So I heard, a cunning conspiracy if ever I saw one - I'm particularly impressed by the white male disguise they operate under. Clever, very clever.

FrothyDragon · 07/03/2012 19:13

The feminist government?

SweetGrapes · 08/03/2012 10:11

'In my 40 year lifetime I have never met a woman who has been raped.'

When I was in college we used to talk about these things and everyone had a story - not necessarily a rape story - but def abuse of some sort - from a bit of unwanted groping ranging all the way to rape.
Remember the threads on here where women put there experiences - pretty harrowing reading. One was about rapes Sad and another thread was about flashing - on the tube, the train, the streets... every blooming where!!
And the death thread - is it still going - lost track - it was very painful.
Two women die a week - it's two women like us...
And this is one of the best places in the world to be a woman!!

Feminism not needed? Really?

LillyJ123 · 03/05/2012 12:23

I haven't been to these pages for a while but I've had several things I wanted to say that just won't go away. I will limit myself to just one.

Some time back in this thread The Scum Manifesto (Society for Cutting Up Men) by Valerie Solanas was brought up. I remember some members gleefully sharing it.

I was told by several members that this book was okay, it was okay to say things like "The male is a biological accident: the Y (male) gene is an incomplete X (female) gene, that is, it has an incomplete set of chromosomes. In other words, the male is an incomplete female, a walking abortion, aborted at the gene stage. To be male is to be deficient, emotionally limited; maleness is a deficiency disease and males are emotional cripples.

The male is completely egocentric, trapped inside himself, incapable of empathizing or identifying with others, or love, friendship, affection of tenderness. He is a completely isolated unit, incapable of rapport with anyone. His responses are entirely visceral, not cerebral; his intelligence is a mere tool in the services of his drives and needs; he is incapable of mental passion, mental interaction; he can't relate to anything other than his own physical sensations. He is a half-dead, unresponsive lump, incapable of giving or receiving pleasure or happiness; consequently, he is at best an utter bore, an inoffensive blob, since only those capable of absorption in others can be charming. He is trapped in a twilight zone halfway between humans and apes, and is far worse off than the apes because, unlike the apes, he is capable of a large array of negative feelings hate, jealousy, contempt, disgust, guilt, shame, doubt and moreover, he is aware of what he is and what he isn't."

I was told that this was not misandry, it was satire; and told that satire doesn't have to be funny in order to be satire. Good job because I find this kind of prose sickens me to the stomach.

Those who would say that we live in a paternity, and that males have all the power and that women have not power, and there is no such thing as misandry, I ask you: in what kind of society would this be acceptable? In 1712 in the slavery years of America a slave owner published a Slave Owner's Manual "Let's Make a Slave". I will quote an excerpt. Unless you try really hard to, it is hard to miss similarities in the language and dehumanization of its subject, and that used by Solanas.

"We lay down the following principles for the long range comprehensive economic planning:

  1. Both horse and niggers are no good to the economy in the wild of natural state.
  2. Both must be broken and tied together for orderly production.
  3. For orderly futures, special and particular attention must be paid to the female and the youngest offspring.
  4. Both must be crossbred to produce a variety and division of labor.
  5. Both must be taught to respond to a peculiar new language.
  6. Psychological and physical instruction of containment must be created for both. ... Accordingly, both a wild horse and a wild or natural nigger is dangerous even if captured, for they will have the tendency to seek their customary freedom, and in doing so, might kill you in your sleep. You cannot rest.

They sleep while you are awake and are awake while you are asleep. They are dangerous near the family house and it requires too much labor to watch them away from the house. Above all you cannot get them to work in this natural state. Hence, both the horse and the nigger must be broken, that is break them from one form of mental life to another, keep the body and take the mind. In other words, break the will to resist.

Now the breaking process is the same for the horse and the nigger, only slightly varying in degrees..."

If you find the language above offensive, but think that the language in "SCUM" to be okay then I really don't know what to say. Both books trigger a visceral reaction of absolute disgust in me. If you actually enjoyed that book then you ARE a misandrist. You can deny it all you want, just like the old male chauvinists used to deny they were chauvinistic. You can try to put a spin on it, but that book preaches pure hatred and contempt of men. Aka misandry.

Finally I wish to refute the assertion that so many members here have made that "SCUM" was merely a parody.

Might I remind you that the books author Solanas, shot a man three times?

Are we to believe that the shootings were also meant to be a parody? Should the victim, Andy Warhol, have taken it all in good humour as it was all part of a big parody? Solanas meant what she was writing.

Here's an excerpt on what happened on that day:

"While Warhol was on the phone, Solanas shot at him three times. The first two shots missed, and the third went through his left lung, spleen, stomach, liver, esophagus and finally his right lung.[32] She then shot art critic Mario Amaya, shooting him in the right hip, and tried to shoot Warhol's manager Fred Hughes by shooting him in the head point blank, but her gun jammed.[33] Hughes asked her to leave, which she did, leaving behind a paper bag with her address book on a table.[33] Warhol, declared clinically dead, was taken to Columbus Hospital, and operated on by five doctors for five hours, who saved his life"

She tried to shoot a man point blank in the head. The only thing that saved him was that her gun jammed.

She was sentenced to three years in prison, with the year she spent in a psychiatric ward counted as time served.

If it had been a man who had shot or tried to shoot three women do you think he would have got such a light sentence for his crimes?

After her release Solanas dedicated the rest of her life to the destruction of men. What a noble cause. Where does feminism end and misandry begin? What does it take before someone can recognize that yes misandry is just as real as misogyny?

Is there any regular on this site who is brave enough to break ranks and dare to condemn this book for the evil that it is?

Somehow I doubt it. It is always easier to conform than it is to challenge the status quo. Even if you secretly believed it was an evil book you wouldn't want to fall out with your sisters and earn their censure. However I still hope that there is one soul out there brave enough to speak her mind independently of the collective.

messyisthenewtidy · 03/05/2012 13:12

Lilly if it makes you feel better when I linked to that book SCUM, I felt really uncomfortable too. It made me feel a bit sick tbh. I don't think it's funny, satire or not, and if the author did all those things then she is a complete loon.

But as awful as it was, one swallow doesn't make a summer. On the other side however, (misogynist violence against women), there's a whole flock of swallows, Lepine being an old example, Breivik being a recent one. Misandry exists but not to the same level, with the same power or with the same cultural backing.

messyisthenewtidy · 03/05/2012 13:18

Actually to give an example just flick over to the link in Lottapiano's thread. Louise Mensch subjected to twitter abuse eg: "Louise Mensch is attractive but makes me want to hit her with a hammer. In the face.? ...

....plus several other nasty comments too nasty to publish even in the Daily Fail. You see I've never seen women talk about men in that way on such a public forum. Such threats of violence against men are extreme but against women it is common enough to be on twitter.

KRITIQ · 03/05/2012 13:28

And add to it the recent negative comments about Professor Mary Beard, focussing on her appearance and age - because women who are not attractive and youthful are deemed at best redundant and at worst, offensive for even existing, within our misogynist society.

One or two fairly obscure and old publications (how many here were even born when SCUM Manifesto was written, eh?) aren't even sniffing the same impact as the misogyny ingrained in our society and its institutions.

LillyJ123 · 04/05/2012 04:30

First of all a big thank you to messy, which really is the new tidy in my book, for your comment, I'm so glad I'm not the only woman on this site who is immune to feeling sickened by the writing in that book! :)

Something I've seen a lot of in this thread is the mention of two women being murdered per week. Can somebody please provide me with a link to the study that this figure came from? Was it sourced from actual current British crime statistics?

Also if two women are being murdered per week, how many men and children are?

LillyJ123 · 04/05/2012 05:30

Also Messy and Kritiq, I just wanted to acknowledge what you said about men who murdered women just for their gender, and although I don't know about Professor Beard, it is indeed wrong and misogynistic to condemn her because of her appearance.

On an unrelated note, (and just repeating it so it doesn't get buried amongst other comments) I'm wondering about this statistic that keeps popping up about two women being murdered every week. Does anybody have a link to the crime statistics or research papers that show that that is the case?

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