misandry doesn't exist

[MitchierInge]

not in a sort of homologous (if that's the word?) way to misogyny anyway - society just isn't that evolved yet

The point about women giving birth is interesting.

I suppose there must have bee a time when the women was pregnant, gave birth and breastfed, and during all of that time the man had to support her in a very real, immediate, material way - or else his mate would die and his baby would die and his genes wouldn't be passed on. But the more our human societies evolve in the direction they've taken in the Western world, the more this responsibility is farmed out to other women or to ''society''. So a woman can do her bit by giving birth, but society actively discourages men from putting in the equivalent effort.

I refer you to the numbers Sahara.

Also, are you going to argue that black people choose not to be politicians too, because they are underrepresented? And they choose not to be CEO's, not to be DG of the BBC, not to have power?

I'm afraid you're coming across as extremely unsophisticated.

Ok, I've got to go, but i'll come back to the thread tomorrow and reply. I'll check out your link tomorrow Tunip.

Oh cheers Basil.

do read it, Sahara, it is an excellent report. The bit you want is on pp.45-50 . There are some shockers in the section on direct discrimination.

jericho will pm you tomorrow if you like but I just want to say I wasn't being critical as such, but the language issue bugs me somewhat now. I thought your post was great btw. Will get back later.

I've been out tonight to a Constituency Labour Party meeting. We have been discussing education tonight. Great debate ensued with an excellent guest speaker. I love my party and am delighted that it has all women shortlists. I don't give a fig if in some CLPs this doesn't work; in general it does. It means more participation by 50% of the population. It's not there yet. Labour has its problems too.

This has been an excellent discussion so far. I think we all agree that misandry doesn't exist. But I'm loving the derail into class and social disparities.

Thanks - don't worry if it's too much trouble, I just wanted to understand and my brain is running about half an hour behind at the moment so I didn't know if I'd said it badly or I'd missed your point. One of those days.

Sounds like a good meeting you had!

Oh, and I meant to say, I didn't take it as you being critical, just wanted to follow.

Haven't you read the thread Lilly, and seen what people say about the difference between misogyny and misandry not being two sides of the one coin?
They don't compare. Do you think they do?

It's like comparing a puddle with an ocean.

Why are you promoting mens rights propaganda in a space for wormen's rights Lilly?

tell us whether you're in the UK or elsewhere and whether you're a man or a woman, Lilly, and we'll be able to make sensible activism suggestions for you.

Hi SinicalSanta,

Thanks for your reply and for getting the two "ells" right - (hehe there's really three ells in my name, but never mind :)

I have indeed read much of the thread SinicalSanta, and I'm intrigued by many of the points of view.

Puddles versus the ocean? I wonder. One case in point. A woman gets raped. Most men would think the rapist was an absolute animal and would want to beat his head in. A woman drugs a man who wanted to divorce her and proceeds to cut of his penis while he begs for mercy. A whole lot of women on a TV show howl in hysterical laughter about it and another bunch of women set up a facebook fan page for the perpetrator. Another example? Watch pretty much any TV commercial today and see how often the woman is portrayed as smarter than the man. Another example? Watch a TV show where somebody is killed and it's a good thing they were killed. Chances are it was a man who was killed an nobody cares. When a woman is killed on TV it is normally portrayed as a horrific thing and the man who killed her will surely meet a gruesome death. Women who kill men on TV however are portrayed as heroines. Another? Family court. How often does a man win custody. If a man fails to pay up he's seen as a "dead beat dad" (you don't often hear "dead beat mum" and fathers who fail to pay are far more likely to be sent to jail than non custodial mothers who fail to pay.

The problem is when your eyes are only open to one kind of discrimination and shut to another kind. If you see all the cases of discrimination against women, but ignore, minimize, dismiss or fail to see the cases of discrimination against men, then of course you are going to see oceans versus puddles.

Misandry is defined as hatred against men. That's all.

If I can be accused of being misogynistic simply for not buying into the absurd idea that misandry doesn't exist; then surely the woman who wrote the SCUM manifesto, as mentioned in this thread - a woman who called for the culling of human males in a similar way to the way Hitler fostered hatred of Jews in his book Mein Kampf - could be accused of being a misandrist.

Misandry is hatred of men. You would have to hate men to want to have them murdered en masse. Valerie Solanas called for this to happen and hence was no doubt a misandrist.

Misandry is real.

LOL at the SCUM Manifesto being equal to Mein Kampf.

One of them led to the slaughter of 6 million Jews and bloodshed across Europe.

The other, well the other didn't.

The SCUM manifesto is satire. What it prescribes for what we should do to men is what men already do to women. Don't you get that?

I think we just got Godwin's.

I'm surprised Feminazis haven't been mentioned yet.

So Nyac no suggestions at all about what to do about the massacre of girls?

I thought you cared about that, or is it really just an argument you have spouted without really giving a damn. If not then again I ask you, what ideas do you have to stop this evil? Or are you more interested in trying to prove your "misandry doesn't exist" ideas?

I resent your implication that I am spreading propaganda - if there is any propaganda here it's that "misandry doesn't exist".

I am not spouting propaganda, I am speaking the truth as I see and hear it.

Is the truth propaganda? Am I wrong to say that most men think that rapists are animals? Am I wrong to say that an entire TV panel of women and audience of women laughed hysterically at a man who had been drugged and mutilated after telling his wife he wanted to divorce her?

These are facts, not propaganda.

I am against injustices against anyone, not just against injustice against women.

What about you Nyac? Do you only care when the female is a victim of injustice? Do you never care when a male is a victim of injustice?

Do you only care about women's rights? Do you think it is right to oppose men who seek their own rights against injustice?

Is it not possible for feminists and MRAs to work together to fight injustice against either gender, to fight for what's right rather than what most benefits one gender over another?

yes Nyac, also that character from The Women's Room who MRAs like to quote as if she was a real person.

Lilly, you need to tell us what country you are in and whether you are a man or a woman, so we can suggest the best organisations for you to support. I don't know why you are having a go at Nyac when you have ignored my question.

Nyac, you are right The SCUM manifesto never did lead to the massacre of millions, but not for the want of trying.

I see that you take this book lightly and are not at all offended by it. It is a satire you say. Don't I get it you ask.

Tell me something Nyac, and be honest. If a book had been written saying that all women were evil and had ruined the world and should be slaughtered, do you think you would have taken it quite so lightly? Is there a small chance you may have called the author a misogynist? You implied that I was misogynist simply for speaking my mind and saying that misandry exists, now look at the scale of misandry in the SCUM Manifesto - oh that's right - you don't believe misandry exists.

The fact is that if you have such a strong belief that misandry does not exist, then you will filter any and all contradictory facts in such a way that your belief is validated. The most horrific things can be said about men and you will find a way to explain how this is not misandry, while the slightest whiff of disagreement with your ideals will instantly attract the charge of "misogyny".

Another thing I'd ask you Nyac, if you can suspend disbelief and use your imagination on this one: how would you feel if a large number of women did start to act on the SCUM manifesto? How would you feel if it took hold politically and people actually started exterminating men simply for being the gender they were.

Would you be joining the party or fighting against it?

Case by case:

A woman gets raped. No justice in the vast majority of cases.

Woman horribly mutilates man to fanfare by loons. Very easy to switch genders there. Fanfare by loons remain.

Stupid man on commercial: Women should really stick to what they know best, laundry, and enabling men's minor failings.

TV shows where it's a good/bad thing a man/woman was killed. Was it because he was a decent hardworking family man and left everybody in peace? Does the camera linger lovingly over her cold & bloody flesh? Context is important.

Family court: How many men are the primary carers before the split? How many men prioritise their careers and earning potential? How often do you come across a dead beat mum, in RL? Probably equivalent to the amount of times you hear the phrase.

Valarie Solanis = Hitler?
That is just the exact same thing.

Nothing proved there Lilly.

Have you actually read the SCUM manifesto, Lilly?

Solanas wasn''t trying to get men massacred. She was providing an introspective, satirical look at society. The thing is, in the UK, we really do have two women a week massacred by former or ex partners. Doesn't that enrage you more than a fictional, satirical text?

Not for want of trying?

LOLOL.

Can't really take you seriously Lilly.

they don't need any sort of manifesto, in Asia say, where the abortion and infanticide of female babies means there is a demographic imbalance of 100 Million women.

Like I said: puddle v ocean

Lilly, have you read A Modest Proposal by Jonathan Swift? It's great. And I say that as someone who is implacably opposed to expecting poor people to eat their children.
I'm worried you don't seem to understand what satire means.

A woman gets raped. Most people think she's partly to blame by being drunk/wearing revealing clothing/out by herself/female. Or else they think she's lying and it's actually sex she later regrets. Men (and some women) make rape jokes that normalise rape and make it seem less of a crime. Facebook refuses to take down 'joke' pro-rape pages because they're only a bit of fun.

Women are portrayed as smarter then men at using certain cleaning products, big sodding whoop dee whoop. It doesn't benefit women to be seen as the only people capable of spraying a bottle of chemicals on a work surface, it does otoh benefit men.

Women are portrayed as victims on TV shows. Vulnerable and weak, men are strong and clever even when they're evil psychotic killers, and he is only brought down by an equally strong and clever male. Think CSI in all it's forms, it's a clever Grisham, Caine, Taylor who puts all the pieces together and goes out to catch the villain. It does not benefit women to be portrayed as weak and vulnerable, only suited to be killed early on in an episode in a horrible, degrading way, or as a side-kick to the far superior male lead character.

It's no more sexist against men to award the primary carer of a child custody, than it is unfair discrimination to promote the hard-working employee over the lazy. Men have the option of changing the way custody decisions are made by changing the way they parent while still in a relationship with the mother. If they take on more parenting responsibilities then their claims to custody will be more or less equal to the mothers. AFAICT MRAs are trying to do away with the ''primary carer'' factor, it's the only advantage women have but it was made through sacrifice, often sacrificing careers and promotion prospects. Very few men seem willing to make these sacrifices. Why do you think parental responsibilities are called parental responsibilities, and not parental rights?

jesus, there are still people who take the SCUM manifesto seriously? It's an obvious parody because every statement made about men has at one point been said about women, with the notable difference that the statements said about women were made in all seriousness, and taken seriously and believed.