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Original poster

Atheism and misogyny

188 replies

Dworkin · 29/12/2011 14:30

Some men sink to a new low when it comes to sexually objectifying a 15 year old girl on reddit. Sick and nasty stuff.

skepchick.org/2011/12/reddit-makes-me-hate-atheists/

OP posts:
ecclesvet · 30/12/2011 13:08

I didn't mean it to be an excuse, and it wouldn't be odd to read all the comments on your post, no. I just think that the people making these rape 'jokes' were doing it with the intent of "I'm joking around with my white male liberal buddies", not "I'm going to direct this rape fantasy at an underage girl". Which doesn't excuse their actions, which were obviously horrible.

I don't like this "yes, but"/excuses angle you're working, Sardine. It seems to suggest that anything other than "yes, you are 100% correct" is the 'wrong' answer, and that we are not allowed to add our own thoughts onto anything anyone else has said/posted. If you want that kind of discourse, Mumsnet isn't the place for that.

SardineQueen · 30/12/2011 13:12

NG where has anyone said that all athiests are sexist monsters?

Nowhere in that exchange does it say anything approaching that.

noblegiraffe · 30/12/2011 13:12

"Even under the usual standards of that community there was no way of predicting that was going to happen."

I know. I have said about million times that rape threats would not nor should not have been expected. But it was possible to predict that her post would invite replies about her, and be of a sexually suggestive nature rather than her book. And I am not saying that that's right, just that it was predictable given where, what and how she posted. And any regular redditor would have known that.

SardineQueen · 30/12/2011 13:13

You think that ecclesvet, but you have no way of knowing the motivations of every person who posted on that thread.

SardineQueen · 30/12/2011 13:14

NG that doesn't make sense. How was she supposed to predict what was going to happen and not post, if no-one could have predicted what was going to happen?

ecclesvet · 30/12/2011 13:14

That's sadly true.

noblegiraffe · 30/12/2011 13:15

SQ, is it not reasonable to reply to a thread and comments trying to link atheism to sexism with a comment reasoning that there is no link between not believing in God and being a misogynist?

Really? Is that really off topic?

Stop trying to tell people what they can and can't post about.

SardineQueen · 30/12/2011 13:16

NG and ecclesvet you have read the comments that were posted and "liked" by so many people to that girl. Including ones about kidnap, anal rape, blood and tears being natures lubricant. And all the rest of it.

Are either of you actually prepared to say that you think what was said to her was revolting (or similar) - without qualifying it in any way?

SardineQueen · 30/12/2011 13:17

NG not when no-one on the thread is making that link, no. Feel free to continue the line if you like, but you're not going to get the "discussion" that you ealrier said you wanted, as no-one disagrees with you on that point.

noblegiraffe · 30/12/2011 13:20

"How was she supposed to predict what was going to happen and not post, if no-one could have predicted what was going to happen?"

Dear god. I said, right back in my first post on this thread that she wasn't being helpful in encouraging serious responses. This was in response to suggestions that she had merely posted an innocent thread about a book she got from her mum and was only after a discussion about atheism.

If she was only after a discussion of the book, then knowing how Reddit works, she went about it badly. That doesn't mean she shouldn't have posted at all, just that she should have at least held off on the anus comments (and the naked penthouse one).

noblegiraffe · 30/12/2011 13:22

"Are either of you actually prepared to say that you think what was said to her was revolting"

Are you serious? I have condemned those comments unreservedly many times on this thread. And repeatedly, for the hard of reading.

SardineQueen · 30/12/2011 13:22

But she was merely posting an innocent thread about a book she got from her mum and was only after a discussion about atheism, wasn't she?

Do you think otherwise? Do you think she had different motivations, or that all is not as it seems in some other way?

SardineQueen · 30/12/2011 13:25

In the ones I have seen you keep going on and on about how she shouldn't have used the language she did / should have known the rules / should have known about karma whoring / shouldn't have included a picture of herself. Which isn't without reservation.

However if you say that you do condemn them without reservation then that's fine. Even though you just did it again in your last post but one

noblegiraffe · 30/12/2011 13:25

"NG not when no-one on the thread is making that link, no."

That's funny, because those comments that I copied and pasted into my post above making the link between atheism and sexism sure seemed to look like it. Male atheists take their cues from biological determinism, the logical extension of evolution, male atheists have a scientific background and know the cause and effect of controlling women. Do you not think there is even a hint there of 'atheism and sexism are linked'?

SardineQueen · 30/12/2011 13:28

No, they were talking about how sexist men who are athiests thought processes might work.

You can tell because they kept saying "lots of" rather than "all".

How stupid do you think dworkin and forkful are that they would take that thread to conclude that absolutely every male athiest in the world is a sexist who likes to spout rape fantasies at underage girls. I mean just FGS.

chibi · 30/12/2011 13:29

i don't think there is a link between atheism and misogyny

i do think that our culture is on the whole endemically misogynist, and that any community therein whether atheist or otherwise will exemplify this

i would have been as unsurprised to see these comments on an atheist thread as i would on any other. the precise nature of the comments might change, but the misogyny would be the same

DioneTheDiabolist · 30/12/2011 13:30

So what if some of her comments may have been open to being misconstrued, she is a child and no one deserves to have those disgusting comments targeted at them. She didn't post on a dating site, she posted in what she believed to be a forum discussing serious matters. I do not believe how she could have expected such responses.

The only people in the wrong here were the posters of the violently misogynistic remarks and they should be unreservedly pulled up on them.

noblegiraffe · 30/12/2011 13:31

"But she was merely posting an innocent thread about a book she got from her mum and was only after a discussion about atheism, wasn't she?"

How would you tell? How could you tell the difference between a troll posting a WOHM thread and an innocent poster not seeking to stir up a spat?

Given that she is only 15, it is possible that she was merely naive. Btw, she did know about karma whoring, she mentioned it in a post.

"Which isn't without reservation. "

No, you're (deliberately?) misreading my posts. I have unreservedly many times condemned the rape threats. But other comments that were not strictly on the topic of atheism are a different matter.

chibi · 30/12/2011 13:32

there are a million ways in which they could have taken the piss out of her or mocked her had they not thought her serious or worthy of engaging with her in good faith which would not have involved making rape threats about her

how funny then that this seems to have been the majority of posts on that thread

chibi · 30/12/2011 13:34

like, for instance, i think certain posters on this thread have some pretty spurious arguments

i have not threatened, jokingly or otrherwise, to violate their bodily integrity

it was fairly easy to avoid, doing so tbh

noblegiraffe · 30/12/2011 13:34

"No, they were talking about how sexist men who are athiests thought processes might work."

I don't think I ever said that anyone was arguing that all atheists are sexists. I was arguing against the idea that their atheism and sexism are somehow connected, and that misogyny is a particular problem in the atheist community, because it's an atheist community.

Like I said, I have read plenty of atheist literature and never seen anything making any connection. I believe that atheist misogynists are misogynists who just also happen to be atheist and that the two have nothing to do with each other.

SardineQueen · 30/12/2011 13:35

NG so now you are seriously suggesting that the girl set out to elicit comments of a sexually explicit nature. Possibly including rapey ones.

Really? I mean, really?

Original poster
Dworkin · 30/12/2011 13:37

Stop with the misrepresentation Noble and the "yes, buttery' eccles. This is a posting that clearly demonstrates that athiest communities are places where sexism and misogyny is rife. Yes rife, because as Noble so clearly points out, posting in a community that has 'rules', which appear to include:

*If a woman then expect sexist and misogynistic replies.

That to me is the equivalent of 'she was wearing a short skirt and so was asking for it".

*no apologies

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 30/12/2011 13:44

"NG so now you are seriously suggesting that the girl set out to elicit comments of a sexually explicit nature. Possibly including rapey ones."

No. I don't think she set out to elicit rapey comments. How many times do I need to say that rape threats would not nor should not be the expected response hmm?

I don't know whether she set out to elicit comments relating to her attractiveness. Probably not, is my reckoning. If she was a regular user of reddit, she should have known her photo was likely to get personal comments, but as I said she is 15 and could just be naive.

noblegiraffe · 30/12/2011 13:45

Dworkin, for the billionth time, it wasn't just posted to an atheist community, it was posted to potentially 25 million general internet users of unknown religious affiliation.

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