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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Atheism and misogyny

188 replies

Dworkin · 29/12/2011 14:30

Some men sink to a new low when it comes to sexually objectifying a 15 year old girl on reddit. Sick and nasty stuff.

skepchick.org/2011/12/reddit-makes-me-hate-atheists/

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Dworkin · 29/12/2011 22:38

noble

Perhaps this is a better explanation, though forkful's link to the feminism101 is also as good. I suggest you check them both out before that hole you're digging gets too big.

freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2011/12/29/why-yes-but-is-the-wrong-response-to-misogyny/

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noblegiraffe · 29/12/2011 22:41

Shall I repeat myself?

Not justifying the posts on that thread in any way - reddit has some horrifically misogynistic content

noblegiraffe · 29/12/2011 22:43

Seriously, being told that your response isn't the correct one is one of the things people keep complaining about when talking about the Mumsnet feminism section.

Dworkin · 29/12/2011 22:47

I never once said your response isn't the correct one. I'm suggesting that you are attempting a derail.

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noblegiraffe · 29/12/2011 22:52

Dworkin, one of your links contains the words 'the wrong response'!

I'm not attempting a derail. I am attempting to point out that this particular reddit thread should not be used as an example of atheist misogyny given the massive audience of potential contributors.

Dworkin · 29/12/2011 22:58

So provide a link that does give an 'example of atheist misogyny' on reddit.

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Dworkin · 29/12/2011 22:59

Which link contains the words 'the wrong response'*

*beware your answer!

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noblegiraffe · 29/12/2011 23:10

Why should I provide a link that gives an example of atheist misogyny on reddit? Eh? Is that not your job since you started the Atheism and Misogyny thread?

Perhaps you need to understand that on reddit, it is not uncommon for women to post pictures of themselves with a cute cat or geeky t-shirt or whatever ostensibly to show off the cat or shirt but actually to entice comments as to their attractiveness and upvotes for this reason. It is part of something called karma whoring. So if a pretty girl posts a picture of herself with a geeky book and in the comments refers to her anus, it would not be surprising if posters replied with banter that was not a serious philosophical discussion of her Carl Sagan book. Not justifying the posts on that thread in any way - reddit has some horrifically misogynistic content.

noblegiraffe · 29/12/2011 23:13

Btw, before you start, karma whoring takes many forms and men do it too.

Dworkin · 29/12/2011 23:13

@noble's last post; horrible and thankfully my 16 year old told me that she 'has a life' when I asked her if she was on reddit.

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Dworkin · 29/12/2011 23:18

@ noble. Why don't you link to the 'horrifically misogynistic content'. I can't begin to even understand what this would be after reading the comments that where btl on the 15 year old's posting.

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noblegiraffe · 29/12/2011 23:23

Indeed. Look at the science section of Reddit, isn't it dreadful?

Oh no, it's actually a regularly updated collection of the most fascinating science stories from around the world.

Judging reddit from the actions of some utter tosspots who comment on it is like judging the whole internet as horrible because there is some objectionable content. Even the Skepchick article reinforces that some parts of reddit are great.

noblegiraffe · 29/12/2011 23:24

Erm Dworkin, it is plain that some of the comments made to the 15 year old girl were horrifically misogynistic. I didn't dispute that. It's rather bizarre that you seem to be insinuating that I might.

Dworkin · 29/12/2011 23:40

Can you explain to me exactly what comments to the 15 year old where horrifically misogynistic; by way of a link please.

I don't do question marks.

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noblegiraffe · 29/12/2011 23:41

Try the ones referred to in the article you linked to in the OP.

noblegiraffe · 29/12/2011 23:47

I'm really not sure what you're getting at. Are you going to find a misogynistic comment that was made by an atheist and then try to link the two like forkful did earlier with the bizarre comment about biological determinism?

I have never denied that there are misogynists who are also atheists. I don't think that if you want to argue that there's a connection between the two (I'm dubious) that you can use a thread on reddit to do this.

Dworkin · 30/12/2011 00:03

You can have the last say, I don't mind at all as your comments are spurious to the actual post. Ha!

I liked Alwayswild's comment. Page 2 at the bottom. Ohhh missus, I wrote bottom; as in anus. Does that suit your generation noble.

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noblegiraffe · 30/12/2011 00:22

"You can have the last say"....and Dworkin continues posting with an insult. Hmm

My generation? What generation would that be?

I'm not sure how my comments about atheism being irrelevant to misogyny in this context (and I would argue further, in any context) are 'spurious to the actual post' in a thread entitled 'Atheism and misogyny?'.

I'm an atheist. I've read a lot of atheist literature on the internet and off and I have never seen anything that argues that an atheist should be an arsehole to women. I've seen plenty of atheist literature arguing against the religious oppression of women, which would be odd if they are all misogynists, no? If you are an atheist, you don't believe in God. That's it. Nothing else follows automatically, there is no atheist creed. If Rebecca Watson has discovered that Richard Dawkins is a bit of a dick then what does that say about atheism? Nothing. If Rebecca Watson has said that the atheism subreddit has fostered an intense hatred of fellow atheists then she's an idiot. Does she hate the 15 year old atheist who posted about her Sagan book? Obviously not, yet she's an atheist. What she actually hates is tossers who post shit on the internet, and men who treat women badly. And there are plenty enough of them about in every walk of life.

SardineQueen · 30/12/2011 09:49

I think the point is that lots of people (wrongly) when they discover that they "are feminists" assume that they will find more support / sympathy / understanding within certain areas of society. So they assume that lefty types will be more inclined towards a feminist POV than right wing types. And that athiest types will be more naturally feministy than religious types.

To find that actually everyone is just as bad as each other when it comes to sexism is a bit of a shocker. The tirade at this girl on a website to discuss athieism (sp) probably comes as a surprise to a lot of people as they would have hoped for better on a website to discuss a fairly serious and grown-up topic.

I don't think there is any excuse for the way that she was treated.

SardineQueen · 30/12/2011 09:51

Also occurred to me last night - the fact that the girl was 15. These comments would have been really out of order whether she was 16 or 36 or 56. Imagine posting somewhere about a book that you have had for christmas on athiesm and the responses being that hundreds of men want to rape you anally and make you bleed and cry. How you you feel about that? I would be shocked and upset.

SardineQueen · 30/12/2011 09:54

noblegiraffe I am sure that no-one on here takes this as evidence that all athiests are sexist monsters.

So that is a bit off topic really.

I am really uncomfortable with your comments that amount to she was asking for it, what did she expect etc.

SardineQueen · 30/12/2011 10:09

I'm not trying to be nasty or provocative they do just genuinely make me feel a bit uncomfortable.

noblegiraffe · 30/12/2011 10:31

SQ the author of the article in the OP says she hates her fellow atheists and writes an article about how sexist these fellow atheists are. Of course it is not off topic to dismiss any link between atheist and sexism. It's the title of the thread fgs. And people have been speculating as to why atheists in particular might be sexist. Stop trying to shout down my right to reply.

I didn't say anywhere that she was asking for it, what did she expect, so please fuck off putting words into my mouth. I have said many times now that there is no justifying the comments that she received, that reddit can be horribly misogynistic.

When I said she wasn't encouraging serious replies with her reference to her anus, I didn't say that she was encouraging rape threats. Merely that if she was seeking a serious debate about atheism, she would have done better to have avoided flippant comments of that sort, and not merely because she is female.

What particularly annoys me about the article in the OP is that the author claims to be a regular user of reddit yet appears to be ignorant of the fact that the atheism subreddit posts to the main page. That people who post on atheism submissions are probably more likely to have come from the great Internet unwashed than a select band of atheists. Thus her blaming atheists in particular for this undoubtably horrible reaction is stupid, it hasn't come from an atheist community, but from Reddit, which is huge. If she wanted to write an article about misogyny on Reddit, on the sexism behind karma whoring through using photos of pretty girls, on the /gonewild section or jailbait or any other number of things which spring to mind I'd be right behind her. But she seems to have a chip on her shoulder about sexist atheists in particular and seems to be trying to spinning this incident to suit her own ends.

SardineQueen · 30/12/2011 10:53

I can't see any posts on here that suggest that they agree with the author of the article? Who are you arguing with? The comments on this thread have all said that they think some men are sexist etc and obviously athiest men are not immune to this. So everyone on this thread has the same POV as you and so I'm not sure why you are going on about it.

I don't understand why you think the author should not have a complaint about what happened to this girl, your idea is that there are worse things out there? Well of course there are but it doesn't stop this incident being really bad.

And I really do see your comments as amounting to she was asking for it, what did she expect...

"the post she made referencing her anus wasn't helpful in encouraging serious replies"
"referencing her anus wasn't helpful in encouraging serious replies. It is exactly the sort of thing that redditors would pick up and run with in any context."
"Perhaps you need to understand that on reddit, it is not uncommon for women to post pictures of themselves with a cute cat or geeky t-shirt or whatever ostensibly to show off the cat or shirt but actually to entice comments as to their attractiveness and upvotes for this reason. It is part of something called karma whoring. So if a pretty girl posts a picture of herself with a geeky book and in the comments refers to her anus, it would not be surprising if posters replied with banter that was not a serious philosophical discussion of her Carl Sagan book.

When I read these comments, I feel that they amount to what did she expect, she was asking for it.

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