Happy Patriarchymas!

[thunderboltsandlightning]

I know, I know - but this is the feminist section and christmas is about celebrating the birth of the son of god, with women's spirituality and power completely written out of the story. It's the classic patriarchal mindfuck for women. Even Santa's a man, but who does most of the present-buying and wrapping?

Then there's the fact that christmas is all about women doing most of the work, with men enjoying the benefits.

Each year I find it a little more difficult to have to go through it all. Once you've seen what it's about, it gets harder to ignore the brainwashing.

Hope everybody has a happy peaceful time, whatever you are celebrating.

oh lollygag, your posts are as germane as they are entertaining

don't ever change

I wont.I'm just going to look up the word germane now to see if I should be offended.

I may be missing something - but I don't get how DDs 1st birthday party is centred around a man - it's centred around dd and all her little friends.

But the men are doing those things as their paid employment, for which they are respected. The whole point of wife work is that it goes unseen and unthanked.
There are laws protecting workers from oppression an abuse, but very little to protect a woman against working al day, staying up til midnight to wrap presents, then getting up at night if the kids wake up.

If an employer expected that from an employee, they could be taken to court. If a family expects that from a mum, she is supposed to enjoy it.

Women are often so conditioned to accept this that they are complicit in the arrangement which is why it's so damaging. Mentally, it can be impossible to see a way out.

Shit slow typing on iPod. Imagine my comments appearing about 5 mins before they do

I bought the presents but hubby wrapped them and made the dinner just as he does every year.

I agree that religion is deeply mysoginistic. Years ago I asked Xenia how she was both catholic and feminist, as I find it hard to sit the two together.

The whole image of celebrating childbirth I fine problematic. Obvious the arrival of a child is good but how women are perceived I find very mixes messages about.

Loads of images of pregnant women or women with new born relate back to virginal expectations. But preg women often seen as dirty or shameful is they remind people of sex. The idea of 'didn't she do well' in sometimes a patronizing way. Or that somehow a woman cheated by having a cs. Almost no red to the trauma and mess of childbirth

Then we celebrate it.

Prob not v coherent but not sure of my own thoughts on this,

Need to get up and feed cats, have breakfast but will be back later

Zombi,go somewhere else.This is a thread for the oppressed.You'll spoil the ambience.

Zombi - I'm wih you :), but if you look further down the thread you will see relating your own experiences is narcissistic .

I don't assume that because my family is fine etc - I have enough life experience to know differently - all may be fine in my life now - but that certainly hasn't always been the case.

However I would like to see improvements for those who don't have the same enjoyment - not a loss of enjoyment for those whose celebrations (of whichever festival) are pleasant for them.

Hey all, I really, really agree with Chibi that there are 2 issues - the way women tend to do all the work of Christmas, birthdays etc (which I don't think is really about religion per se, it's broader than that) and the other issue of whether Christmas and other Christian festivals are patriarchal in their stories and symbolism. They do benefit from being examined separately, and I would have no questions that the first issue is defiantly an example of misogyny in action for a great number of women - and also lots of media representations, adverts etc at this time of year reinforce those issues.

Thunder, I really don't think I have derailed this thread. I thought you wanted to discuss the patriarchal aspects of Christmas. We have discussed whether the nativity story as told in the bible and as told by society is patriarchal. We have discussed the role of Mary in catholic and Protestant traditions. We have discussed whether the maleness of the central character of the gospels means they are necessarily patriarchal, or whether he could be constructed as a feminist. Yes, I approach this from a standpoint of faith, and you don't, but I feel I have explained myself clearly and have given the reasons behind what I think as much as I am able to with the speed the thread is going and the time I have. I have pointed you to the books / theologians, and bible passages which have influenced my thinking on this, just have you have. I have enjoyed discussing these things with other thoughtful, intelligent women.

I get the feeling from your posts that because my feminism does not look like your feminism, you feel it is not valid and you do not want me to post. I have in no way tried to proselytise my religion here - and if you feel that is what I have done I am very sorry. I am not evangelistic in my faith, and certainly would not want to convert people. I am genuinely interested in the way others navigate the difficult spaces where gender and religion overlap and clash, and I want to hear what they think - whether they are christian or not.

This is the first time I've posted in feminism, and I chose this thread because it is an issue I have read about and thought about a lot, and which has had a deep impact on my own life. I'm not sure I'll post again tbh, but I will continue to read the threads with interest. And I have met some lovely people with interesting views, for which I thank you all.

Lollygag I can't help it. The man is Delia Smith with a dick. I'd compare him to Ramsey or Oliver but they ARE dicks!

MJ

abird I've found your posts fascinating and well written (and I bought the book) - I genuinely hope to cross threads with you again.

'Deli Smith with a dick' - Now that's a phrase you don't hear everyday!

Typo,sorry!

abird - don't stop poosting. I don't agree with some/all of your posts, but then I'd say the same of everyone on mn, so that shouldn't bother you.

Part of the problem is that a typical 'troll' tactic is to pretend to be disingenius about a topic, and bring in arguments that sound kind of supportive of feminism, but then use that to say 'so your arguments are wrong cos this is feminsim' and to ignore the points made by others. There have been some posters who did that on a very regular basis, and it was pretty much an attempt to stop the conversation from progressing towards more 'hardcore' feminist arguments (fwiw, I'm really not sure the labels we use are accurate).

You have come across as someone with a genuine point of view, willing to discuss it & trying to be open minded.

There are disagreements within feminism, as within any political movement. you may need to just agree to disagree with certain other posters.

Personally, I think that it's perfectly normal for a conversation to veer off onto tangents. It happens naturally. Sadly, some posters on mn deliberately do this in feminism to stop the feminists being heard. So, bringing in tangents can be seen as an aggressive move.

I almost feel like this thread needs to be split into two - 1. The social pressures to conform to a role of womanhood. 2. how religion perpetuates misogyny.

Those with stories of how your household is equal - i think ti's fair enough to say 'over here we've got a result' but it can sometimes sound a bit like 'I'm all right, so why bother'. But that's the problem with the internet rather than rl

and abird - you should continue to post, OR poost wherever you want!

Thanks kick, just wanted to say I wasn't really aware of all that about trolls etc - tbh I read some of the feminist threads, but when some random person jumps in on a thread with 'but if women are dressed like that they should take responsibility...' or crap like that,I loose interest- we all know they are wrong, we all know the arguments against, and whilst I respect tose of you with the energy to fight it out I don't have the energy to read it all(again!). So if I missed nuances on the feminist board or posted things which would be inappropriate had I known all your recent history, I am sorry - I am a newbie!

But I'm really, truly a feminist, and really truly a Christian, and really truly not a troll. I came with no agenda other than to discuss an issue I find interesting with others, and hear their views on it, in the hope f developing my own thinking on the matter.

I've been interested to hear the differing opinions about Christianity viewed through a feminist lens. It's not something I'd given deep thought to, and it's interesting to me because even though I'm an atheist it has a huge impact on our cultural lives.

the impact of religion on society is v interesting.

i'm currently trying to find an online MA in equality/women's studies because I feel so horrendously ill-informed on so many matters. Almost all the posts I make are just my own musing, I have no ref. to back up my thoughts.

I think it's prob a life-times study to really analyse society, but I'm still interested in trying to make sense of the world that I live in.

ABird I've ordered a copy of that book. When read, maybe we can discuss it if youre up for that? I'll start a thread to see if you're about. [Fsmile]

People can quibble all they like about what Jesus may or may not have said (it was all written down third hand many years after his death) but the Christian church is based more on the teachings of the apostle Paul who was about as mysoginistic a bigot as you could find. (Truth be told, he was a hater of mankind)
I'd like to see figures on church attendance because, patriarchal as it is, I see women as keeping it in business. I'm basing that on my observations of the 5 sin temples I have within walking distance of me. It is nearly all women I see spilling out of them on Sunday mornings, bringing the children along for good measure.
In the case of the Catholic church, I find that incredible and disturbing. I suppose it's a tribute to the power of brainwashing children but I wonder why it seems to be women in particular who are still keeping the whole rotten ship afloat. Talk about licking the boot that's standing on your neck.
What is the attraction?

leaving aside the potency of inculcating belief in the very young (c.f. the Jesuit 'give us the child until he is 7 and we will give you the man') and the comfort of habit, and cultural expectations there is something beyond that that keeps women going

For all that it is a juggernaut of oppression there are some powerful ideas in xtianity - viz the beatitudes: blessed are those who mourn, blessed are the meek.

Or the bit about consider the lilies of the field, who neither toil nor spin; or His eye is on the sparrow etc.

i have heard it called pie in the sky when you die, which is blunt, but accurate

as far as memes go these are potent for people who are oppressed. this is a bible thing, not a Church thing; the Church doesn't go in for liberation theology quite so much and has a detailled track record of stomping it out

Then there is the Virgin Mary who is v easy to identify with as a woman more done to than doing, and an icon of strength through submission

i guess that's why i go, or some of it. it is totally at odds with my feminism, and i don't know that it could ever be reconciled. At its heart, i suppose that this is the way i know how to be a person of faith.

i couldn't possibly defend it as feminist on any level; consider me like your smoker friend who smiles a weak and hollow smile when antismoking adverts come on telly.

Well thanks for being honest but I still don't get why beatitudes which encourage the oppressed to see their lot as a blessing should appeal to either sex, least of all women.