Happy Patriarchymas!

[thunderboltsandlightning]

I know, I know - but this is the feminist section and christmas is about celebrating the birth of the son of god, with women's spirituality and power completely written out of the story. It's the classic patriarchal mindfuck for women. Even Santa's a man, but who does most of the present-buying and wrapping?

Then there's the fact that christmas is all about women doing most of the work, with men enjoying the benefits.

Each year I find it a little more difficult to have to go through it all. Once you've seen what it's about, it gets harder to ignore the brainwashing.

Hope everybody has a happy peaceful time, whatever you are celebrating.

I like to hear the full range of feminist thought. I didn't have access to "radical" feminism when I was younger so coming across it here is good, and I am often in agreement with it. However, I doubt that I would even engage with a discussion if ther were only one type of feminism being posted about. The very act of discussion draws me in, and makes me come to my own conclusions.

I think it unlikely that an Internet chat will change anyine's beliefs (religious or otherwise) but having the opportunity to hear those beliefs is important.

I went to a church school and I was never happy with the pTriarchical atmospher, even though it was a girls school. This thread is helping me to see why I felt that way

How does the Magnificat suggest that Mary had any choice in the matter? It suggests that she accepted her destiny willingly, but not that she had any choice, surely?

"Most Catholic women know the power lies with them."

What?

No abortion, no contraception, no sex before marriage (whose going to get found out) and all sorts of awful things being done around the world in the name of this church. No women allowed in any part of the power structure all the way up to the top. I mean, seriously? That's just getting silly.

What about the young girls who have been raped and refused abortion? So many harrowing cases - that one recently where a girl of about 12 was excommunicated because she was raped and her family got her an abortion (IIRC). Power lies with women in the RC church what a preposterous statement.

Sorry that's just made me so mad.

(Raised RC and most of my friends still practicing FYI)

maybe the power referred to is the power to help clean the church, cook meals for the priests and do their washing/housekeeping

rc women have lots of that power from what i have seen (raised catholic)

BTW a pope headline did make me actually LOL the other day:

"Pope condemns 'superficial glitter' "

Accompanied by a picture of him bedecked from head to toe in intricate golden robes and surrounded by massive gold candlesticks

I mean if anyone knows about "glitter" and utilising it to its own ends it's the Vatican!

Sardine, that's awful.

abird - I agree. But I think that's why it's important to step back and see the Bible as a tool that the patriarchy has used to oppress women - it has been incredibly successful. I went to a talk about the different translations and people saying that this interpretation on this thread is irreligious would really be shocked to see how some people have used the words of the Bible to justify really horrible behaviour. It does happen. And oppression isn't something you can separate out from the tools of oppression - IMO we need to understand both.

I hope this isn't digressing, but I find it really interesting how many people will admit that, as Christians they are offended by the homophobic use of the Bible. And they will admit that it is easy to find passages that condemn homosexuality, but that this does not make it right to do so. We should I think be doing the same about the anti-women passages - admitting they are there and acknowledging the problem.

Sardine, that reminds me of my Brazilian catholic friend who said to me "at home the woman is in charge" as she was slaving over a gorgeous meal whilst the men were in the lounge playing drums!

Maybe she felt power because she was skilled and indispensable, and tbf her Dh did appreciate her, but it seemed a bit of a hollow victory when it resulted in her doing the lion's share of the housework as well as working outside.

The whole RC thing (and prob other religions too but it's the one I know best) is terribly hard. If it's the religion and a part of your upbringing and/or culture it's unthinkable to jack it in, as it's a part of your identity. Yet all this awful stuff. The people I know just try to keep their minds off the horrible bits as much as they can, not think about it too much - as if they did think about it they'd have to jack it in and they can't do that IYSWIM.

sardine what has surprised me from this thread, is how deeply ingrained into me my catholic upbringing is.

I disapprove of huge aspects of "the Church" - but it's there and it runs through me.

I think your Brazilian friend can be likened to my gran - the centre of the family.

"I wonder, if MIL walked out of Church and never stepped foot in there again, who would be there to look after her, when we cant be??

Who would visit her, take her to hospital appointments, take her for lunch, help her with chores, and generally care for her well being?"

All the other women who walked out beside her. It's not the catholic church that takes care of the old and sick and needy, it's women. The catholic church just gets to claim the credit.

Yy lrd. There are ani-woman passages in the bible. There is a male bias in the bible. There is gendered language in the bible. It has been used to oppress women, gay people, black people, Catholics, Protestants, scientists, children, just about anyone really.

It sounds like all of us agree on this. The difference is, some people (including me) think it also contains useful and good things, and the way it has been written by men and used by men (and white people, and heterosexual people, etc etc) does not mean a new discourse is impossible. Theology is evolving all the time, Christian practice evolves all the time, and I feel feminist Christians are a prophetic voice in the church, giving a godly perspective on how the bible and Christian practice can be reinterpreted and reread to reflect the pro-woman, universalist approach of Jesus himself.

Of course, if someone does not see the value of the bible as a text, or faith as a real issue for many people including feminist women, they can take the stance that the whole thing is irredeemable and both the bible and christianity should be rejected completely. This stance is valid and logically coherent, but it does not really help those of us who do have some kind of faith. It suggests one has to choose between believing in equality, and having religious faith (unless it is a goddess-focussed faith).

I think making women make that choice is wrong. People have more than one identity, and there identities are often complex in the way they overlap. Consider the black (oppressed) man (oppressor). The white (oppressor) disabled (oppressed) rich (powerful) woman(powerless). The intersections between identities are contested spaces, and interesting to explore. But having more than one is ok. I am white. I am Christian. I am female. I am liberal. I am a feminist. Some of the relationships between these identities are uncomfortable and complex, and I recognise that. But they can and do coexist in millions of people, so exploring the ways they coexist is interesting nd useful. Suggesting it has to be one or the other is illogical.

Also, general comment - do remember many of the feminist concerns with the catholic church would not apply to all churches - most people practicing Christianity inEngland and Wales at least are not catholic, I guess that would be different in Scotland / Ireland.

You are very wrong in your assumption that other women are doing these thing - it's mostly men.

And how would she access that support network and community? How would she know them??

And to add, I don't think "the Chuch" does take care of MIL - it's the community within it that she has been able to access by attending - the "Church" itself, as an institution does nothing, nonetheless it is be being a part of this wider community, that she has a full and active life with caring individuals around her.

Her faith is touching, but the practical support she receives by being a part of this community definitely enables her to have a better quality of life.

She has a better social life than us!

By the way, hope this is not too random, but it just occurred to me the shakers were started by a woman, mother Anne. They were an American faith with some links to Christianity, very interesting people.

I think the results of the bible and christianity speak for themselves abird. Just for starters

2 millennia of female oppression by men, justified by the claim that it was willed by god
the crusades
goodness knows how many other "holy" wars
the witchburnings in which tens of thousands/hundreds of thousands? of women were murdered by the church and the professions
the complete erasure of female spirituality and divinity from our western culture
the ownership by men of women through marriage, only changed within the last 150 years
the rape of children within the catholic church and its following cover up

Also being a woman isn't an "identity", it's a state of being. If you'd been born as you are ten thousand years ago, or if you are born ten thousand years in the future, you would have been and will be a woman. Christian not so much. It's a cultural construct, one that it's possible to reject. So please don't pretend it's not a choice you're making.

I think it's unfair for women that christianity and all the other patriarchal religions even exist. Feminism is a place where that can be discussed.

Mh I always kind of saw the church as the sum of the people in it? What is it if not it's members? But this may be a catholic /Protestant difference - we have a concept of "the priesthood of all believers" meaning the church consists of everyone in it, and all have equal access to god, which may not be part of catholic theology?

BTW I didn't say you couldn't be a feminist and a christian Abird. I said that on this thread when you insist on talking about your "faith" that christianity isn't misogynistic and woman-erasing against all the evidence that shows that it is, is derailing the thread, because I started the thread to talk about patriarchal religious myth which is demonstrable, which can be analysed.

You haven't addressed my point about how jesus acted like your average sexist man thinking that his pontificating was more important than the work a woman had to do, either.

thunder no one is saying it shouldn't be discussed - except you - who seems to have an issue with the path the discussion has taken.

abird I was just trying to make a distinction between the Church as an organisation and it's members - although you could argue that the reason MiL receives so much help is that the Church Community is mDe up of good, Christian people.

We had her 80th Birthday party after mass, and it was clear to see she is well loved and respected.

Yes I'm wondering why people are ignoring the topic of the thread which is patriarchal religious myth

We can hear prosletysing about religion in a whole lot of places on every day of the week. There are churches in all our towns, villages and cities. Christianity is our state religion. Radical feminist analysis of it, pretty much nowhere.

I guess some people would be happier if there was no radical feminist analysis of it whatsoever. Which is why this thread is being derailed.

I see lively debate in a topic which is interesting people.

What's the problem with that?

I see a bunch of people who find radical feminism very threatening and want to shut those kind of discussions down. Abird isn't debating, she's making statements with no backup apart from "faith" and when they are contradicted, ignoring the contradictions e.g. the claim that jesus was a feminist, which is very easily disputed.

Talking about how great christianity is, isn't lively, it's soul-crushing.

With regards to the catholic church, I'm actually interested in how any woman stays in it once they discovered about the systemic rape of children going on within it and the cover-up that ensued afterwards. Quite a few of those priests have been shipped off to developing world countries where they can continue their paedophilic activities. Where do people draw a line?

I don't know what the difference is between a Feminist and a Radical Feminist.From what I can work out 'Radical Feminists' have a lot more spare time on their hands as they are always posting on MN.Feminists,on the other hand,don't seem to have the time as they are too busy making their own way in the world.

Anyway back to christmas. This is Daly's analysis of the psychological effects of these male centred holidays and traditions:

"The "milestones" of this articificial memory are male milestones, and all too frequently function for women as millstones. Thus for example, religious and national holidays conjure memories of servitude - shopping, cooking cleaning etc. Patriarchal weddings imply the legal and ritualised loss of one's own name and autonomy. Going to work commonly means accepting a dead-end, low paying, Self-erasing job. Birthdays are reminders of ageing and subsequent patriarchal devaluation. While the milestones of adult "life" may be dreary for individual males, they are at the same time a collective boost to the male ego, to the Mythic Male, with whom each man identifies. Thus Christmas, Easter, Veterans Day, Washington's birthday, a marriage in the family are designed to be "uppers" for men and "downers" (disguised as uppers) for women."