Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Happy Patriarchymas!

384 replies

thunderboltsandlightning · 24/12/2011 21:48

I know, I know - but this is the feminist section and christmas is about celebrating the birth of the son of god, with women's spirituality and power completely written out of the story. It's the classic patriarchal mindfuck for women. Even Santa's a man, but who does most of the present-buying and wrapping?

Then there's the fact that christmas is all about women doing most of the work, with men enjoying the benefits.

Each year I find it a little more difficult to have to go through it all. Once you've seen what it's about, it gets harder to ignore the brainwashing.

Hope everybody has a happy peaceful time, whatever you are celebrating.

OP posts:
Abirdinthehand · 27/12/2011 23:58

Woo, go the Church of Scotland! I didn't kno that Brandy.

I wend to a church once, and asked , 'Do women preach at your church?'

A: Well, yes, we don't have theological problem with it - any Elder of the church can preach.

Me: Cool! So how many women on the eldership?

A: Ah, we wouldn't allow women on the eldership - we would have a theological problem with that.

Hmm

It was quite mindbending. In most of protestantism though, this is a question for debate, and denominations do change their stances - it must be very hard in catholicism because it sems s se in stone.

MJ, I would be interested in your feelings about the veneration of Mary - sometimes I feel wistful that catholicism has such a strong female character at the center of the faith which we don't, but sometimes d you not find it uncomfortable that her main (only?) role is as a childbearer? Sorry, really don't want to offend you (or her!) but just interested in your views as a Catholic.

vesuvia · 27/12/2011 23:59

TheBrandyButterflyEffect wrote - "there have been (if memory serves) two woman convenors of the Church of Scotland."

Thanks for that information.

MooncupGoddess · 28/12/2011 00:03

abird - yes, the Visitation is a nice bit of the gospels, with Mary and Elizabeth meeting up and the child leaping in his mother's womb. But it still doesn't involve much decisive action on either woman's part, does it - essentially it's just Mary going to see her cousin.

And the Magnificat is all about Mary saying how blessed she is to be chosen by the Lord. Classic submissive stuff.

I like your posts though! And I agree that Jesus' attitude to women is unusual and impressive for his time - it is one of the aspects of the gospels that suggests to me that Jesus was a real person (though am not a Christian myself).

Abirdinthehand · 28/12/2011 00:09

That's interesting Mooncup, yes, I had not thought about Jesus' trangressive approach to gener as evidence of his existence (probably because his existence was never a question for me). But yes - why would the male writers incude these incidents which they clearly find problematic if they did not feel compelled to include them because of truthfullness? It is not the kind of stuff they would want their Saviour to be doing - talking to bleeding women and Samarians and lepers all of the place, yuk!

DioneTheDiabolist · 28/12/2011 00:17

I may be late here, but I'm a Catholic and women's spirituality and power is there in our telling of Christmas. Joseph is on a par with the donkey and hired help, but Goddess worship is all ago.

Anyway, Christmas is a time for my mother to re-assert her rights over the kitchen, for dad to visit his sisters and for me to have a great day.

I love it.

MJinSparklyStockings · 28/12/2011 00:21

abird that catholicism has such a strong female character at the center of the faith which we don't, but sometimes d you not find it uncomfortable that her main (only?) role is as a childbearer? Sorry, really don't want to offend you (or her!) but just interested in your views as a Catholic.

Im non practising and have been for a long time, but I was brought up in a staunchly Catholic background, these are just my views.

Re her role only being a child bearer, that is central, its a very matriarchial view, that the "mother" is all important, I'll talk about my grandmother, rather than the Virgin Mary, because I find it easier to explain.

My grandmother would be an anethma to todays feminists (I think), she fulfilled a very much traditional role, she cooked, cleaned, did all the house work, raised the children, my grand father never did housework, he was the "bread winner", but my grandmothers role, was seen as the most important thing. being "mum" did not belittle her role, it was the most important role.

She was (is) the centre point of our family, the person whose views held most sway, to whom everyone turned. To say Mary was "only the child bearer" is to demean the role of the mother, God didn't just pick anyone to bear a child, he picked Mary because she was strong, good, pure.

She is the "mother", not just of Jesus but of the whole Catholic Church, it may have been hijacked to patriarchy (for want of a better term), but the Catholic Church owes its very existance to a woman.

The village my mother and my grandmother are from is full of icons to the Virgin Mary.

I went to an all girls convent school, we were taught we could be anything, do anything, go anywhere, no limits were put on out education, no doubts about our abilities were cast. It was assumed we could go into any career we wanted, attend any university, achieve any heights. The nuns, were in their own way, seen as strong and powerful women.

Abirdinthehand · 28/12/2011 00:23

I find the Catolic approach to women so double-sided though Dione - all venerating Mary, but then no women prests? It's fascinating, I'd love to understand it better from a Catholic point of view (most churches I've been to take a 'Catholics mean well but are a bit misguided and heretical' approach, which I find a bit rude and shallow - educate me!)

Abirdinthehand · 28/12/2011 00:26

I like the emphasis on Mary as someone who CHOSE to accept the gift and pain of being the mother of Christ, which makes her powerful, rather than someone it was forced on. And that makes a nice symmetry - God chose her, she chose to bear him.

MJ did you ever feel there wasa contradiction between Mary's importance and the lack of women in church leadership?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 28/12/2011 00:32

This thread is really confusing now.

We do have a gender neutral pronoun - it's 'it' in the singular and 'they' in the plural! (And incidentally, there is a long history in Christianity of not using a gendered pronoun for God).

I don't personally believe thunder's interpretation of the Mary story, but IMO the point is that many people do believe that that is what happened, God made Mary pregnant, and she was just meant to be obedient and put up with it, and this shows that women should always put up with what men say and do. I don't understand how saying that is offensive to religion? The only people I've heard seriously defend that idea are people who quite seriously and literally believe women are inferior and that this is part of God's plan. And TBH I don't really care about offending them, it seems like quite a good idea to me.

If you don't think women are inferior or that men should use a story about a girl who in our culture is of an age considered to be a child, as an incentive to rape young women ... fine, dissociate yourself from it then. I don't understand defending it, and I'm Christian myself.

MJinSparklyStockings · 28/12/2011 00:32

I stopped practising at about 20, and at that time, had never considered the lack of woman in the priesthood, but the nuns who taught me were accorded huge amounts of respect - they were seen as strong powerful women, so I had never really seen there as being no women in leadership. Our head mistress was not "less" than the Parish Priest, she was just "different", with a different role.

I am far from the biggest fan of the Catholic Church and I am no Theologican, these are just my personal thoughts, based on my own experiences.

thunderboltsandlightning · 28/12/2011 00:38

Mary was kept on in christianity in order to entice in the pagans who needed a goddess to worship. It's why there are Marian cathedrals all over France. The protestants completed the goddess erasing project of christianity when Mary was cast out of their worship.

"I like the emphasis on Mary as someone who CHOSE to accept the gift and pain of being the mother of Christ, which makes her powerful, rather than someone it was forced on."

Well if men can persuade people that the woman consented then there is no rape. Acquiescence "Thy will be done" isn't consent though and it certainly has nothing to do with power. It would be crazy to argue that anybody else apart from god had power in that scenario.

"Luke 1:26-38
New International Version (NIV)
The Birth of Jesus Foretold

26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth?s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin?s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, ?Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.?
29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, ?Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob?s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.?

34 ?How will this be,? Mary asked the angel, ?since I am a virgin??

35 The angel answered, ?The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[a] the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.?

38 ?I am the Lord?s servant,? Mary answered. ?May your word to me be fulfilled.? Then the angel left her.

OP posts:
Abirdinthehand · 28/12/2011 00:39

LRD - I guess I would distinuigh between what really happened - which I believe was positive, life affirming, and gave Mary a choice - and what we have recieved through 2000 years of patriarchal religious interpretation. And I would be happy to reject the latter (which I would call 'religion') but defend the former (which I call 'faith').

I don't think it's offensive at all to discuss it though!

thunderboltsandlightning · 28/12/2011 00:42

Once again, this thread is about christian symbolism and myth-making i.e. what is actually contained in the bible and christian dogma that came from that.

Just to say, "well I wish for something different", isn't actually an argument.

OP posts:
Abirdinthehand · 28/12/2011 00:44

Ohh, goodness, thunder, this is the first time ever I will post bible verses on MN! But since you are ok with it, I will suggest that you stopped reading to early - mary's song straight after this passage shows her as having made a positive choice:

Mary Visits Elizabeth
39 At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40 where she entered Zechariah?s home and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary?s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: ?Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!?
Mary?s Song
46 And Mary said:
?My soul glorifies the Lord
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49 for the Mighty One has done great things for me?
holy is his name.
50 His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
51 He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
52 He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
53 He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.
54 He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
55 to Abraham and his descendants forever,
just as he promised our ancestors.?

56 Mary stayed with Elizabeth for about three months and then returned home.

MJinSparklyStockings · 28/12/2011 00:46

abird, you would probably love chatting to MIL, she loves God, and the Church, she goes every day and is accorded massive respect within her community.

Whatever you thoughts on the Church as an institution, they certainly look after her well (she is a long drive from us and we cant always be there). I am glad she has her faith, it comforts her, makes her happy.

She was widowed at quite a young age, and is quite content in her belief, that when she dies, she is going to God and to her husband, whatever my personal thoughts on that, I find her faith touching.

Abirdinthehand · 28/12/2011 00:49

But Thunder, I believe the Bible is in some way 'special', it is scripture to me (and to millions of others). But I also recognize that the stories in it have been retold and interpreted so many times in patriarchal ways that they have come to symbolis things which, in fact, I do not think were actually there at the begining. So much of the christian feminist theology I have read reinterprets the text from a starting position that the old interpretations are based, the male writers were biased, but God is not biased. It's not wishful thinking, it's redressing 2000 years of bias.

thunderboltsandlightning · 28/12/2011 00:58

Well OK Abird, but this thread is about the bible as myth and symbolism and the way in which it promotes the patriarchy and oppresses women. It's just another book, it's not special, apart from the way its message has been used to harm so many women, and to justify that harm.

I know it's special to you, and to millions of other christians, and boy hasn't christianity been able to force it down the the throats of so many of us for two millennia. However there is a religious section if you want to talk about religious faith rather than feminist analysis (which doesn't rely on faith or wishful thinking). You could even start a thread about feminist approaches to faith in this section. However on this thread you are derailing the topic which takes as its starting point examining patriarchal religious myth.

OP posts:
thunderboltsandlightning · 28/12/2011 01:00

Men wrote the bible. Men invented god in their image.

That's where my argument begins. From that we can examine the stories they created, and felt the need to tell e.g. the virgin birth, jesus the son of god etc, and why they felt the need to invent those particular ideas. What were their motivations? What did they achieve by getting people to believe these stories?

OP posts:
DioneTheDiabolist · 28/12/2011 01:02

Most Catholic women know the power lies with them. Most priests know this too. Where women are educated and knowledgable, the church follows. But at a snails pace, so that they keep the developing world on side.

The Catholic church ceased being a leader long ago, but it never forgot the role of the Goddesss is necessary and it's women drive it forward.

thunderboltsandlightning · 28/12/2011 01:04

My dream would be for every catholic woman to walk out of that church and never set foot in it again.

OP posts:
MJinSparklyStockings · 28/12/2011 01:06

I wonder, if MIL walked out of Church and never stepped foot in there again, who would be there to look after her, when we cant be??

Who would visit her, take her to hospital appointments, take her for lunch, help her with chores, and generally care for her well being?

messyisthenewtidy · 28/12/2011 01:13

Actually ABird, if you are to assume that 2000years of patriarchy has twisted the original message of Jesus then you actually have quite a bit of freedom to interpret the essence of the religion in the way you believe. and it is quite reasonable to assume Jesus was in favour of equality considering that he did treat women as individuals whose worth wasn't solely connected to their sexual purity. Unfortunately the male church founders saw his own celibacy as a rejection of sex and women.

I had to laugh the other day though when I advanced the Jesus-was-a-feminist-because-he told-Martha-to-sit-down theory to my mum who is a committed christian. She snorted with laughter and said "I bet he ate the sodding food she served him though!"

Anyway just off to bed. But please dont be scared of the feminist boards. We may be opinionated but we are a lovely lot really and i for one have found your posts very interesting.Grin

messyisthenewtidy · 28/12/2011 01:26

Sorry, really am off to bed but isn't it true that Catholics have a ton of female role models to choose from in the shape of the saints that the protestants got rid of? Or did they all have to be virgins too?

Tortington · 28/12/2011 01:29

what i wont have is the bollocks that god raped a mortal virgin: there is absolutley no evidence to support this. fucking feminist hysteria making shit up - have a fucking word

BluddyMoFo · 28/12/2011 01:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Swipe left for the next trending thread