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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Pro-life / Pro-choice

335 replies

Drowz0r · 12/12/2011 13:37

Admittedly usually something argued accross the atlantic than in the UK anymore... I am curious to know how it ranges in the forum.

Anyone here pro-life or pro-choice? Any specific reason?

OP posts:
slug · 14/12/2011 20:10

Interesting Holey. I wonder what would happen if every woman who was forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term deposited the resulting child on the doorstep of the sperm donor to care for.

Beachcomber · 15/12/2011 08:14

I totally agree with you holy.

If society wasn't obsessed with PIV and men took more responsibility for their sperm and exhibited less entitlement to putting their penises in women, abortion issues would be very different.

hardboiledpossum · 16/12/2011 18:49

I haven't read the whole thread but I would consider myself to be a feminist and also anti abortion. I would definitely like the limit for abortion to be brought down.

hardboiledpossum · 16/12/2011 18:56

I believe the right of the foetus to life is more important than the womans right to have control over her body.

ElfenorRathbone · 16/12/2011 19:03

Then you're a funny sort of feminist.

Anyone who believes that forcing a woman to go through the life-changing , life-threatening events of pregnancy and childbirth against her will, doesn't really value women that much. And if you don't value women's lives and think they are as precious and valuable as those of men, it's a funny sort of feminism you're espousing.

StewieGriffinsMom · 16/12/2011 19:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Kristingle · 16/12/2011 19:52

Im sorry eleanor, but i cant see how this is aout the rights of men versus women. Its about the rights of women vs the unborn child or foetus. Half of whom are female. Surely thats what makes this such a complec issue

I might as well characterise it as the rights of female babies not to be aborted so their biological father do not have to pay to support them

fridakahlo · 16/12/2011 21:03

The point is, Kristingle, that this is a decision a man will never have to face. He may have to support his partner in her decision or he may walk away entirely (my sisters father avoided her existence for years). Therefore if you make abortion illegal you are effectively punishing half the population for having sex. And since politically most modern governments are still for the most part run by men, I'm not sure how you could say that was not discriminatory?

LynetteScavo · 16/12/2011 21:22

"Im sorry eleanor, but i cant see how this is aout the rights of men versus women. Its about the rights of women vs the unborn child or foetus"

Exactly.

ElfenorRathbone · 16/12/2011 21:46

If men gave birth, there would be no question about whose rights were more important - it would be the grown man's.

And it is women versus men, in that no-one would ever suggest, that men should be forced to undergo a life-threatening, life-changing event, against their will. It would simply be considered an abhorrent idea. Men's lives are far too valuable to entertain such an idea.

Kristingle · 17/12/2011 01:14

I dont think abortion should be illegal BTW. Im just not sure i understand how this is about womens rights vs mens rights

SinicalSanta · 17/12/2011 02:06

I mentioned that above, that being pro foetus rights isn't necessarily anti woman but that's how the debate ends up.
But childbearing is not risk free. Physically, psychologically, emotionally, pragmatically. Why should someone sacrifice so much for someone else? I used the analogy earlier of throwing oneself into the waters to save someone else. Should a person be penalised for not putting themselves at risk to save someone else?
It's a feminist issue because it's not men who have to decide whether to sacrifice elements of themselves for someone else, but women.
I say this as someone who was quite anti abortion before having my own children. While I'm still anti (who wants MORE abortion?) I'm anti even more enforced childbearing.

ElfenorRathbone · 17/12/2011 14:52

Kristingle - because the only reason there is any question at all about it, is because men don't do it. SS is right, in no other area of life is a human being expected to risk their life and welfare, for the sake of another human being. Even firemen are not expected to go into a burning building to save the people in there from burning, although many of them are incredibly brave and selfless and do so - but we certainly don't criticise the ones who don't, and neither should we.

Being pregnant and going through labour is an incredibly big deal, although we live in a society which sneers at it and pretends it's no biggie and WTF should they stand up for pregnant women on the train becasue hey, it's no biggie. The reason it is so disrespected, is because men don't do it. I wouldn't frame it as women's rights versus men's, I'd frame it as women's lives and humanity being just as valuable as men's - and no-one would expect a man to undergo the equivalent physical and emotional endurance test that is pregnancy and childbirth for the sake of another person, against his will. If it were ever mooted that men should be routinely forced to do anything as arduous against their will, the sheer barbarity of such a proposition would immediately be recognised. Becasue the humanity of men is recognsied. Refusing to accept the proposition that women should be forced to go through pregnancy and childbirth against their will, is recognising the humanity of women IMO.

pornmonkey · 17/12/2011 18:48

ElfenorRathbone

^If men gave birth, there would be no question about whose rights were more important - it would be the grown man's.

And it is women versus men, in that no-one would ever suggest, that men should be forced to undergo a life-threatening, life-changing event, against their will. It would simply be considered an abhorrent idea. Men's lives are far too valuable to entertain such an idea^

And the prize for biggest load of tosh goes to...

ElfenorRathbone · 17/12/2011 18:51

That's a good argument pornmonkey. Really well set out and cogent. Congratulations on the name btw. Xmas Biscuit

kodachrome · 17/12/2011 22:37

We don't make anyone donate organs.

We don't make anyone give bone marrow.

We don't even make anyone give blood.

Surely the pro-life position should be to make people donate all these things to save lives? Cos bodily autonomy means nothing, apparently.

hardboiledpossum · 18/12/2011 17:25

I don't believe that it is punishing women. I would feel exactly the same if men had to go through pregnancy. I believe abortion is ending a life.

superduperdiva · 18/12/2011 18:15

I believe abortion is murder.

I believe woman forfeit their right to choose when they have sex. As a man does.

I believe the truth about abortion is hushed up.

I believe abortion should only be allowed if the child is 100% going to die upon birth/before birth. Or if the mother is at a raised risk of death. ONLY.

It's awful, selfish and barbaric.

superduperdiva · 18/12/2011 18:24

ps - I'm an athiest. vehement athiest. So nothing to do with any religious nonsene. You dont need to be religious to see it is barbaric.

blackcurrants · 18/12/2011 18:31

I think forcing someone to go through the trauma of pregnancy and childbirth against their will is effectively slavery.
And that is awful, selfish, and barbaric.

When you say that abortion should only be allowed "if the mother is at a raised risk of death" it provokes the question: how raised? If there's a 70% chance this pregnancy will kill me, can I end it so that my husband and toddler son will continue to have a wife and mother, or do I have to bear it and risk dying?

What about if there's a 75% chance it will kill me, then does my life and responsibilities suddenly become more important than the foetus?

Who gets to make that call? Who gets to tell me how important my life is, whether I'm worth saving from a life-threatening condition?

Why isn't it me?

LineRunnerCrouchingReindeer · 18/12/2011 18:32

superduperdiva Views like that must make the anti-abortion lobby so proud.

ElfenorRathbone · 18/12/2011 18:35

But you do have to value women at a lower rate to that of a man, to not be able to see that putting them through the rigours of preganancy and birth against their will, is barbaric.

Funny how people can see barbarism when it affects an unborn child who or a man, but not if it affects a woman.

All pregnancies carry the risk of death. It's not until you get to delivery, that you know how serious that risk is. But people are perfectly happy to demand that women be forced to undergo that risk, because their lives simply don't matter as much as thouse of men or an unborn child.

AlwaysWild · 18/12/2011 18:35

"I believe abortion should only be allowed if the child is 100% going to die upon birth/before birth. Or if the mother is at a raised risk of death. ONLY."

Well a pregnant woman is at raised risk of death than a non-pregnant woman, superduperdiva, so that's that one sorted. SUPER

superduperdiva · 18/12/2011 18:36

raised as in raised above the normal risk of pregnancy. Obviously Hmm

superduperdiva · 18/12/2011 18:38

against their will??!! I love that. shoudnt have had sex then should they. just like we all love to say to men when they moan about paying child support.

my mind wont be changed on this. it is murder pure and simple.

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