Pro-life / Pro-choice

[Drowz0r]

Admittedly usually something argued accross the atlantic than in the UK anymore... I am curious to know how it ranges in the forum.

Anyone here pro-life or pro-choice? Any specific reason?

I agree that pro choice is the best position on the whole for all of the reasons that have been pointed out however I don't agree that it should be pro easy choice

Termination is NEVER an easy choice.

Sorry to cut across this interesting discussion about education....

Soemone commented further down to the effect of " better an abortion than an unwanted child"

That might be better for the woman but its not neccesarily better for the child

I was an unwanted child, my mother tried to abort me and then placed me for adoption. I dont feel i have suffered more because i wasnt aborted and i dont wish i was dead.

I tbink its a really easy debate if you only consider the rights of the woman. It CAN be as simple as " my body my choice".it get more complex if you are trying to balace the competeing claims of two or more different people.

Well that's why I suppose the crux of the matter is whether a feutus is a person or not. I don't personally believe they are, and the mother definitely is, thus the mothers rights come first.

Yes pootles. If the baby was seen as a person the whole debate becomes much more complicated.

I just wanted to point out that its not as simple as abortion or an unwanted baby. Many women with unplanned pregnancies to go on to want and love their babies. Even if you do not want your baby, there is a family outvthere who does. Of course, many woemn who keep their babies go on to regret it. Not all unwanted children are unhappy and wish they were dead. Its not a simple two way choice

Pootles, I agree with you a foetus is not a person!

This helps me keep sane when I think about the millions of female foetuses aborted every year in places like India.

Kristina, that's exactly where I wobble.
I do believe the unborn is a person, particularly after the age of viability.

And also I think being pro-foetus does not mean anti woman, of course that's often the outcome, but not necessarily the point.

'Trying to balance the claims of two competing people' that is v v v difficult, it's why I mentioned earlier weighing up the life of one versus the convenience of the other.

On balance though, I'm still pro choice : the woman will definitely suffer if an unwanted pg has to go ahead, but an early termination doesn't cause any suffering to a being that is unaware.
The woman herself has to decide just how far she is willing to 'inconvenience' herself for another. Unto death? Or somewhere below that line? It has to be her that decides.

It's a matter of opinion though surely Lollygag - there's not a scientific line with A or B options.

You can't even say Birth is, because of preterm births, preterm medical treatment and all that goes with that.

I don't believe you can say that what qualifies you for 'personhood' is the word of someone else. very dangerous idea.
But in the same way you are not obliged to throw yourself over a bridge to save someone being swept away, you are not obliged to throw yourself into pregnancy for someone else. You decide how strong a swimmer you are, and what you can cope with.

Is this one of those threads in which a bloke exhibits his inability to grasp the concept of bodily autonomy as a woman's right?

I agree, some unwanted pregnancies do have happy endings. The thing is, I really don't think any woman should be forced into continuing with a pregnancy.

As others have said, it's a messy, difficult subject, but the bottom line is you should have control over your own body, and that means being able to choose what happens to it.

"Termination is NEVER an easy choice"

What makes you think that?

There are however plenty of adopted children whom are unhappy some of whom wish they had never been born. There are plenty of mothers who continued the pregnancy but were unsure who went on to succeed or fail as parents with offspring with equally diverse experiences and perceptions.

Individual experience is almost irrelevant there are too many. It's all about the principle and the horrors women suffer in countries when they can't control their fertility and pregnancy speak eloquently about why women must decide this issue personally with a full range of options. There is no baby, there is a dependent foetus. It cannot be prioritized at the expense of any woman.

I am definately against abortion.

But i am definately pro-choice. It's not very straight forward in my head really. I have no idea about statistics but i'm sure a significant proportion of terminations are fairly simple (not easy) decisions that are looked back on as necessary to the women who had them.

However i think there is also a large proportion who feel they made a terrible mistake afterwards and had no idea how they would feel as a result of the abortion. The emotional pain i felt and still feel after mine is something i will never come to terms with. I have merely tried to compartmentalise.

I don't judge anyone regarding their experiences/opinions. All i would say is that it really is one of those subjects that you need to have experienced (either to do it or not do it) in order to truly know the heartbreak (or maybe the relief?).

Don't know if i'm making much sense. Its a very touchy subject that i'm not used to discussing.

beach Is this one of those threads in which a bloke exhibits his inability to grasp the concept of bodily autonomy as a woman's right?

Yes, pretty much. Either that or the OP is trying to stir up a fight, having pretty much said "I'm not going to elaborate on what I think, I want to see you all dance for me! MEAHAHAHAHAH!"

I'm pro-choice. My body, I get to say who I share it with.

Ah thanks blackcurrants.

Actually it's not the life of one vs the convenience of another.

Pregnancy and childbirth are dangerous. I know of 2 women who died in childbirth. And sometimes, women are left permanently injured by giving birth or emotionally traumatised to the point where tehy have PTSD.

Those risks can't be dismissed as mere inconvenience.

I know that Elfenor - but I was deliberately minimising it because even at its most minimal the principle holds.

I am not tryimg to argue anything from my own experince. Data is not the plural of anecdote. But i wanted to share a little of it

What makes you think that?

Because I have been there, and while I know I made the right choice & the only choice, actually having to do it wasn't the easy choice at all.

It was easy to make it, but not easy to have to do it, if that makes sense.

KristinaM

I was unwanted too. But the difference is/was my mother raised me for 18 yrs & destroyed any self esteem I ever had by telling me she never wanted me, never loved me, no one else would love me, no one else would be able to even like me.

She didn't have the option of adopting me out as my father wanted me, and until he left when I was 5, things as I remember were OK.

We haven't spoken since I left home at 18.

differentname, I can see where you're coming from - I'm just not sure that this is fact a universal experience.

I felt at ease about my abortion, as much as one can be at ease about having a bunch of strangers perform a routine but of course still potentially risky medical procedure on one's body. The one and only issue I had was that I knew even then that I did want to have children. Someday, not as an undergraduate and while also holding down a full-time job to support myself. This one point of insecurity was born entirely out of my own fear of rejection and my questioning whether it would be "bad" to say yes to my future children but no to this one.

As for the bodily integrity argument: the vital thing to remember here is that in absolutely no other situation does our society mandate the violation of the right to self-determination in order to guarantee another's survival. Organ donation is voluntary - even if your life has ended and have no more use for your stuff. Even if your behaviour directly caused another person's need for a transplant and you happen to be both a perfect match and dead, your wish to be buried with your liver intact takes precedence over that of the other person to remain alive according to our laws.

We can argue whether or not this is morally acceptable (I'm not necessarily an advocate of corpse rights). But until our general attitude changes or we find an alternative to female pregnancy, the singling out of pregnant women cannot be defended as being anything other than gender based discrimination.

LRD - loving, really loving your work today.

Oh go on, post it anyway

the comedian chelsea handler has made several references to her abortion(s?) on her chat show - joking comments like "i've never gone through with any of my pregnancies". the first time it really jarred, but also made me wonder why it made me so uncomfortable - and why there is such an investment in the idea that "it's never an easy decision" for women.

the end result is the same whether the woman weeps and wails for years, or whether she views it as equivalent to getting a filling at the dentist - so does it matter? should a woman be judged more harshly if she has no doubts about her abortion?

personally i've moved on from my original (more equivocal) viewpoint towards one where abortion should be available on demand - certainly prior to 12 weeks.