My DD thinks feminists have got it all wrong

[ToothbrushThief]

So where did I go wrong?

Tonight we discussed feminism. She was very scathing. One argument we got stuck on was women priests.

Her argument for women not being priests was because their 'work' in the Church was childcare and thus suited to them being women. If they were claiming to not want this work, it was denigrating an important role. Besides mothers expect to keep their children after divorce and thus they have to expect child care roles because they've lost the right to claim they don't want a childcare role.

How old is she?

She sounds like she needs to go to Feminist Bootcamp

18

She's intelligent (a bit airy fairy) but nonetheless intelligent, mature and normally I'd say she's level headed.

On feminism she seems completely and utterly brain washed against. I do feel really angry/sad/flabbergasted about it.

So where is this boot camp!

In my head. (joking, people!).

Would she be amenable to reading The Equality Illusion or Caitlin Moran's book (I'm not a fan, but I can see how it would be a good intro for the likes of your daughter)?

I have to say, I find the women priests issue an odd one to pick!

I wonder if it's just because, at 18 and with you around, she perhaps hasn't come up against a huge amount of sexism? I doubt you've done anything to encourage sexist views btw - don't do yourself down. It's as likely she is reacting against your feminism to test out how she feels.

How does she feel about being paid less than a man?

I feel for you. It could be simple rebellion against you as the parent. Maybe you should avoid these conversations and act not bothered and she may end up changing her mind especially after talking to peers. But as a teenager she is likely to get more stubborn if you debate these issues with her.

Where to start? I had a similar conversation with one of the teenagers that I work with. She baldy stated that feminism was outdated, that she wasn't a feminist and didn't know anyone who was. I told her that I am, then asked her if she thought that she should get paid the same as a man for doing the same job, if she should have the right to decide how to run her own life, if she should be able to further her education. She agreed that all theses things were indeed Good Things, but I still don't think she has made the link between the important freedoms she takes as her right (and they should be) and feminism. I will keep chipping away....

Was about to say the same as LRD and helpmabob. Sounds very much like a smart 18 year old who thinks they are a bit cleverer than their parents but also basically likes the attention a skirmish brings.

Do not appear irked by it is all I can suggest.

Isn't there an argument that it shows how much feminism has done that now younger people can't see the need for it (same goes for civil rights etc.)?

There is that argument, yes.

They'll learn, though

Or alternatively, you could let your 18 year old adult daughter form her own independent views based on her experiences, rather than pushing your own views onto her

Stewie/Ayeda -I have the equality illusion - I'll look at the others

LRD - you may be right - she has been protected from sexism. Good school promoting girls and I hope I've been a good role model.

gran hands - same thing -they just don't appreciate what they have

small white cat - I can't bring myself to even contemplate that

samstown - I am not brain washing her. We discuss human rights, racism, sexism, strictly come dancing, media portrayal of women and men, pros and cons of plain and dark chocolate. Her views really surprised me and I couldn't see any cause for them because she's normally rational. Thinking it's ok to pay men more or allocate priveledges to them is NOT rational

Schools are generally good on equality so she probably hasnt come accross sexism yet.

A book sounds like a good route.

Yep, reading material and continuing to engage with her in discussions. It could be that she's been fairly sheltered from the worst excesses of misogyny. I'm sure there are plenty of folk who cringe when they think of things they believed at 18 - sometimes exploring ideals that they new would wind up their parents as a bit of a rebellion. Of course there are all of those loud and pervasive messages out there that undermine the idea of women as human beings of equal value to men. So keep talking with her.

Sounds like she is beginning to think for herself, and not follow others like sheep. Surely it must be good, if she is confident eough to argue with you, even if you dont agree with what she is saying. She needs to be able to form her own opinions, and not just blindly agree with what you tell her. Sounds like she is growing up! She ll be fine.

Its probably rebellion tbh, do you rant alot or rant about feminism? I'm asking as one of my realtive was a master of this, especially when watching somethin'

I got so sick I would retort something so vulgar and misogynisitc, just to shock them into silence. even though I didn't believe it.

just a possible angle.

Also you don't have to be a stereotypical fem. to enjoy its priviliges its is more serious than that then be real with her, I.e god forbid she ends up in a violent relationship, If it hadn't been for feminism she wouldn't have the option of picking up the phone and ringing a womens refuge. Or the fact that women married, dependent children and career can exist!.

I was exactly like this at 18, I really look back in horror when i think of some of the things i came out with - not so much with my parents, but some teachers and friends.

It is partly that I genuinely had not encountered sexism in the way i have now, I felt that it was a non-issue. In some ways, it is good as ChickenLickn says that we're raising daughters who don't see sexism as the status quo. But the side effect can be hostility to feminism as irrelevant/outdated.

I think you should take heart, try not to get riled, and perhaps also make sure the version of feminism you are presenting is as wide and diverse as possible - thinking about childbirth and the female body as empowering could give a slightly different edge to her arguments.

Perhaps you could point out that the women priests argument is nothing whatsoever to do with children or their care - it is a debate over the significance and relevance (if any) of the Apostolic tradition.

In terms of the women priest issue, I don't see why it is incompatible with mothering. Does she know a lot about the work priests do?

One of the obvious things about the priesthood is that it is often a career change. There are some people who are priests at 24, but it is frequently chosen by both men and women later in life. So people who become priests have often already had children so it isn't something they do instead of having children.

One major part of the work of the clergy is working with children - children's play groups, youth groups, work in faith schools, confirmation classes and so on. So being a priest is not denigrating childcare as an occupation.

Another major part of being a priest is dealing with bereavement. Grieving mothers - those who have experienced a still birth, a miscarriage, or the death of an older child would often rather share that experience with a priest who is also a mother.

Generally the church benefits from having priests who come from both sexes, various social backgrounds, different life experiences and a variety of ethnic groups because it gives them a greater understanding and bond with the communities they serve.

I think it is quite natural for people to most identify with the elements of a minority experience that have most impact on them. Most 18 year olds are going to find it hard to really understand what the issues are with combining being a mother and working, and yet on the other hand also won't appreciate what a precarious position it can be to have children and not have control of finances because you don't work. So they haven't realised how difficult either situation can be, and greater empathy comes with age. It might be better for you to discuss with her situations that are particularly problematic for younger women - predatory relationships, harassment, beauty standards and so on.

Dorothy we have had interesting discussions and agreed to differ for a long time. I'd say she is a girl who has never followed the herd. It's not about her not agreeing with me -she can hold any view she likes. It's about my shock at her holding these views which just seem so backward to me. If she holds them forever it won't affect my life. My fear is that her life might be affected.

Rollon at ranting about feminism. No. I doubt many friends would describe me as one. I don't rant at all. (well ..about feminism I don't) I honestly think that others have got the answer - she hasn't endured the nasty side of misogyny and thus has no perspective

Edith -I am sure that is what I should have done. I think my utter shock at her belief that men should be reserved certain jobs and women given childcare (because they are designed for it...) meant I didn't think sensibly

She often debates her point vigorously (to the point of being irrational) and then a day later regurgitates me as if it was her own idea. I think she argues in the heat of the moment and then sits down and rehashes what has been said...coming to a different conclusion

Milly -last para spot on.

To be honest, I would worry more about her inability to make a coherent, logical argument than her lack of feminist credentials.

I'm not sure it's a lacking in 'feminist credentials' that's concerning the OP. If she was a 'well-thought out' and self-identified feminist at her age she is more likely to be an exception. Neither of my sisters would have taken that position at her age, but yet still are independent, clear-willed and self-possessed women as adults, and always have been. ( wouldstill run a mile from being described as 'feminist').
You don't have to have 'feminist credentials' to believe in equality, and act on it. But Tooth's dd appears to reject even the v. basic notion of 'equality' and accepts that her life options will be limited, though I am not sure she has thought through the consequence of that at all.

I say this also as in our next generation, dd at 11 yo is very self-possessed, knows her rights and will assert them, and so far hasn't shirked anything because of her gender. ( she has some knowledge of what 'boys' can be like).Wobetide anyone who tells her otherwise.

I've often thought (though certainly never said it in real life) that younger women who shirk the idea of frminism often lack a certain amount of empathy and also a seeming inability to see the bigger picture.

Empathy - because they've never experienced sexism themselves, and see their opportunities as the same a their male peers. Indeed, I am 37 and have never really experienced sexism, but I can see the bigger picture - that it's not all about middle-class white/Western girls from happy, supportive families, who've gone to university, got well-paying jobs and have nothing but lovely men in their lives.

If you're only 18 and haven't yet gone out into the world, then it's hardly surprising that you'd come to the conclusion that feminism is outmoded.

But, if you take those blinkers off and scratch below the surface it's difficult (impossible, I'd say, but a foray round these boards proves otherwise) to ignore the continuing inequalities between the genders.

I have to say I'll be gutted if my DD doesn't align herself with feminism, I'm not going to lie! Yes, of course, she need to form her own opinions, but hmm, I won't go into why I would judge her since there are zillions of readers and lurkers ready to jump on my reason.

I agree with the others who say try not to get too het uo when discussing his with her, and try to tease out her arguments so that she can come to the right her own conclusions.