My DD thinks feminists have got it all wrong

[ToothbrushThief]

So where did I go wrong?

Tonight we discussed feminism. She was very scathing. One argument we got stuck on was women priests.

Her argument for women not being priests was because their 'work' in the Church was childcare and thus suited to them being women. If they were claiming to not want this work, it was denigrating an important role. Besides mothers expect to keep their children after divorce and thus they have to expect child care roles because they've lost the right to claim they don't want a childcare role.

Perhaps, in common with a lot of people, including on this forum she has a somewhat skewed idea of what "feminism" means? Perhaps she has the old-fashioned view of the dungaree-wearing, bra-burning, DM-stomping, men-denigrating stereotype?

Might help to sort that out just in case.

Or she could be just being bloodymindedly argumentative for the sake of it. I know I was at that age! But it helps to tease ideas out and gain a more mature perspective on things, rather than the black-and-white extremism of the young adult.

allagory - I agree!

thumbwith - bloody minded argumentative is probably a large part of it

To everyone else who has suggested immaturity and lack of empathy/experience I suspect this is the main problem. I also appreciate anecdotes about other DC seeing the light later on. I will not hector (hadn't anyway because I do respect her right to her own view) but I will continue to sow seeds

I don't know why you are worried she's not a feminist. I don't associate feminism with good thoughts. I do consider myself an equalist though - expecting to be treating equally in the eyes of the law, etc. but recognise that we are different sexes and that sometimes it is frustrating that our society doesn't treat women as a bit 'softer' and delicate than men.

I am not putting this right....if I work i the same job as a man, I want to be paid the same. However, I do like a man who gives up his seat on the bus - but I often have secret thoughts that women are better than men and they should put us all on pedastals for being damn amazing as much as the fact that a lot of women need a rest cos childcare is exhausting and others have damaged bodies after giving birth.

I think your daughter will make up her own mind and that will be just fine. Her world is likely to be a lot different. She's unlikely to have experienced any sexism so far and may never do so in the same way as yourself.

Does she want to be a SAHM herself?

Her argument sounds like brainwashing from the church. Has someone else been making these arguments to her?

What's your family set up like. Do you and her dad have an equal non-stereotyped relationship?

TBH most 18 year olds dont argue coherently even the intelligent ones its just precocious word vomit,

didnt mean to offend OP I was just wonderinf having been the daughter of a woman like it it came to mind, perhaps yes it shes been sheltered by you to alot of sexism.

My views were certainly still evolving when I was 18, and I was from a family that was relatively progressive (for the context) where questioning and analysing were encouraged. I saw myself as a feminist at the time, particularly after catching the tail end of the campaign to pass the Equal Rights Amendment in the US. But, on reflection, I was probably more of an "equalist," if I can borrow Hoopsedaisy's term. I believed that men and women were equal and took that to mean that they should be treated exactly the same, with no "special measures" for either. I didn't see feminism as something that I needed for me. Oh no, I was sure that I could achieve anything a man could if I wanted under my own steam. But, I was "doing it" for other women who needed it. (ah, the naivity of youth! :) )

I don't think at that stage I'd had enough life experience to recognise the structures of power and control within society that underpin and sustain gender and other forms of oppression. A treat-everyone-equally approach only works when there is a completely level playing field and I hadn't yet seen how many peaks and valleys there were on the pitch! I think it took time before I was able to fully connect the political to the personal and see that recognising structured injustice and inequality in society didn't diminish my own abilities, confidence or capacity. It just placed it in a wider, more realistic context.

So, perhaps think of your daughter being on a sort of journey. Her views will probably shift over time and if you have sown the seeds for her to question, to analyse, to think broadly, then she'll do the rest in time.

I would just leave it and let her be, as a vociferously feminist mother of 3 girls I am expecting something like this as they hit the teen years and start trying out their own views.

IMO children have to rebel against their parents, or at least test out different views. If they aren't doing that and just parroting your views (as my pre-teens do at the moment) then you could be worrying that you've just brainwashed them and they haven't developed an independent adult identity.

Don't throw books at her! She's a teenager, she'll work out she's being an idiot eventually, but not if you try and battle her about it - sure fire way to convince her she's right.

Everytime she comes up with complete rubbish, calmly point out why you don't agree and then leave her to mull it over. ie, stick to open ended questions - "but why should men be able to do whatever job they like (including looking after DC) and women not have that choice?" but don't demand an answer, if she wants to keep the conversation going but not address the question repeat it. If she wants to talk about something completely different don't try and drag the conversation back.

And absolutely no smuggery if she changes her mind!

(My mother and I rowed a lot)

yes, suggesting reading books on a topic she states she has no interest in seems odd. I like TeWihara's approach - apart from the non-smuggery bit. That would be sooo difficult after years of arguing.

Is her Dad still involved? If so, take advantage of her silliness. Let him amuse himself by restricting her freedom for a day or two.

Maybe that might wake her up in a way that excellent books might not.

Since you've clearly not encouraged her sexist views, it is perhaps worth finding out where they've come from - friends, school, work, media?

Yes why don't you suggest she live as my mother did, unable to have a passport, open a bank account or buy a house due to her father's refusal to countersign for her until she was over 21/25?

Or this

I find the idea that she should be loaded down with improving feminist literature horribly patronising (as I expect will she). She's not a child. Its up to her, whether you like it or not. Maybe she'll move closer to your way of thinking over time. Maybe she won't. You've got to let go a bit.

She clearly does want to be treated in a horribly patronising fashion, given that she's rejecting feminism

How depressing

I agree with somewhere that the idea of giving her feminist literature is not a good one. I don't think I'd have reacted well to that at that age. (Or now, in fact).

It sounds like she's mainly just playing devil's advocate with you. if so then no harm done really and I'd leave her alone.

If you think that's not the case, then if I were you I would ask her questions that would make her think. What does she think about the fact that there are very few women CEOs, Cabinet ministers, Judges, etc? What does she think would happen to a girl who wanted to be, say, a builder, an engineer, a professional footballer? Would it be just as easy as if they were a boy? What does she think would happen to a boy who wanted to be a ballet dancer, nanny, make up artist? Would it be just as easy as if they were a girl? If women are "designed" to look after children, then does that mean a man shouldn't be a stay at home dad while the mum goes to work? What if he earns less than the mum? Why are girls expected to wear makeup, and men are expected not to? Why are girls expected to remove body hair, and men are not? You get the idea...

Don't worry too much. I went through an anti-feminist phase when I was her age and now I'm a feminist-to-the-end!

I've often wondered why I was like that (some of the things I said were awful!) and I think it is this: When you are 18 you want to feel optimistic about the world and your place in it. If you can rationalize the inequalities that you see all around you and convince yourself that the world is as it should be, then you don't feel quite so powerless.

If she is an intelligent, opinionated and inquisitive woman then hopefully in time she will see things as they really are....

Just to be clear, although I posted about books and ran, I wasn't implying that TT should present them as some kind of "ta da" solution. More that, if her daughter were open to reading about different viewpoints those books would be a good intro. Or, TT could be totally passive and just have them kicking around the place where they might get opened out of curiosity.

I don't wuite get what some of you are saying, though. That kids are brought up quite equally these days (not sure I agree) and so she hasn't experienced misogyny (I can see that) and so her views are, what, understandable? How does that work?

I think it's more that she doesn't appreciate what it's like to really have no choice.

Although I was a big fan of equality, I certainly didn't realise that sexism against women was still a problem in the western world until I had a baby of my own, when things like the unequal distribution of maternity leave suddenly seemed really obvious and stupid.

I get that totally. But her views are not in any way about equality. Maybe she's just backlashing as others have said. Fucking hell. What do we have to do to make it a level playing field? Educate kids about equlaity, we get a backlash. Don't educate the kids and we get what we always got.

The problem is, Ayeda, that things have been unequal for so long that they feel like the norm to most people. Any attempt at real equality feels like "going too far" and hence is met with a backlash..

samandi- no idea. I work fulltime and have 98% childcare. There is the possibility that she thinks my life sucks and thus feminism is awful if it represents the woman doing everything. Her father contributes little

thunder -it was debating club at school and she was very much on her own with her views, by the sound of it (as I said earlier, she does not follow the herd) She did say she'd read something the church put out

I think she'd think she was an equalist ...but life is not equal and she thinks feminism doesn't help. Again, maybe she thinks if I had more support (was less independant) it would be 'a good thing' What she doesn't realise is that I'd still be unsupported but more vulnerable then being capable and in a good job.

Elephants

minipie - we did cover those questions (with horrifying answers!) Women are better at childcare and men are better at IT for example. Men earn more because e.g male IT workers are precious and (female) nurses are two a penny so the lack of qualifications in early IT career can be disregarded..

messy-yes I think this is the case (hope) She often strongly argues one view and then 2 days later is spouting my view as if it was her own. I say nothing. I think she is evolving with limited experience. i was still shocked at her views

Ayeda - Equality Illusion is on a bookshelf outside her door :)

hopefully she'll grow out of it is all I can say...

I do agree with what messy says. When I was that age I didn't really want to listen to negativity about the world. I didn't hold views like your DD's but I do remember thinking my mother was being a bit over dramatic when she expressed (fairly mild!) feminist views . However I now agree with what she was saying. Hang in there.

I suspect she is still finding her feet. When you are 18, articulate and intelligent, you like to argue about all sorts of things, often the more shocking the better.

On what she specifically said to you in your OP, my question would be, what about women who don't want children, or don't particularly like being around them. Where are they left in her world (where women are there for childcare and that's their role)? Is there any role for these women at all?

What does she feel about male primary school teachers? Male nursery workers? If caring for children (including their education) falls solely to women, where does that leave these men?