Wellbeing Thread - who's in?

[AnonWasAWoman]

This is a sort of ?gap in the market? thread really, forgive the rotten title. I was thinking about women and wellbeing and a possible feminist slant on what I feel the beauty industry has colonised.

If I try to find a threads, or a magazine articles, about women?s wellbeing and health I can guarantee half of them will be written in what comes across to me as doublethink: ?you need to feel good about your body, so first you must wage war upon it for a woman?s body is naturally hideously ugly!?. This just makes me sad. So do diluted versions ? the kind of discussions or groups where participants begin with a focus on health, but gradually shift to ?what can you do to look good?, which ? well, just makes me feel ugly if I don?t do those things (And, ah, angry that some people think women should have to!).

It really worries me how, as women, health and beauty are constantly conflated, and there?s an ever-increasing list of treatments that begin as luxurious pampering, then quickly come to be essential ?maintenance? or even basic ?hygiene?. It?s taken that a sign of healthy self-confidence and body confidence is to buy into these ideas about what to do with our time and money and bodies. I?m sure there?s a spectrum of views among feminists as to what we feel is right for us and what?s not, and I don?t want to get into that because I think it?s the least interesting bit of the debate. So I?m not trying to start yet another ?do you wax your fanjo fur? thread ? interesting as they are ?!

I am sure there is a way to resist gendered body care/products without in any way denigrating or ignoring the female body. I bet some of you are brilliant at this and the Resisting Femininity threads were great for showing me the way. But I also want to replace the things I?m resisting, not just get rid of all focus on my body. My mum can as close as can be to this ? everything ?gendered? for women?s bodies, from women?s anti-perspirant, to shaving equipment, to perfume and cosmetics, came under the same heading of ?disgusting things?. In retrospect I find this quite disturbing and not remotely feminist. I am sure I would have been a happier and better-adjusted teenager if I?d not had to sneak off to buy deodorant and nick my dad?s used disposables (I didn?t know any better). If as an adult woman I want to do without any of this stuff, that?s fine ? but I certainly don?t want to feel it?s the only option, or that being a feminist has to mean focusing on the mind and forgetting about the body.

So what I would like to do is to try to hammer out a sense of what you do (if anything) to replace or contrast with what we?re offered by society in terms of caring for your body. So I thought maybe it?d be nice to have a sort of wellbeing thread on here, where we can do all the healthy stuff you hope for on a ?diet? thread (and don?t IME get), and we can do all the ?taking time for myself? stuff that the beauty industry has colonised and distorted, but we can also maybe chat about how to feel better about our bodies, instead of how to make them look better.

So, here?s my list (some, obviously, drawn from a certain S&B thread!). They?re what I?ll hope to do, not what I promise to do!

• I?m going to try to go for a walk at least twice a week, even if it?s just half an hour. And I?m going to take my camera so I don?t end up thinking about work the whole time!
• I?m going to try to eat two different kinds of fruit/veg (I get stuck on apples galore)
• I?ll try to cut my coffee intake
• I?ll try to take 15 minutes before I go to bed to think about something that is not work, or chatting on MN (!), or planning food shopping or whatever
• I?m going to try to make proper breakfast every day
• Go to bed early one night per week
• Ration my (awful) snickers habit! I have eaten three snickers ice-cream bars this morning and it is Not good.
• (You can laugh here) I?m going to do some pelvic floor exercises every week ? I always forget and I imagine I?ll be glad of them later on!

Please add in suggestions if you have them or say if you think I ought to change my mind about any of these.

The other topic on my mind is entitlement. LRD if you were a man, I dont think you would consider the person telling you something you already know. We, as women, have been brought up to be good girls...

my equivalent is I dont believe I can be successful although by many measures I am. Somehow it is undeserved or too easy. Feminism leads me to think we can be the experts on our fields and we do deserve it. Not in an individualistic way but in connected with other women cause we deserve recognition for our achievements.

the bbc program about the choir of army wives: women who sang well were sometimes ruled by self doubt in a way the man who sang badly wasn't. Its not our fanjos making us doubt ourselves........ So entitlement is the remedy. Plus i like using the demon word of the moment!

OP how are you doing with your list? Did you ration the Snickers ice-cream bars and do the pelvic floor exercises? I have had a bit of a list myself for some time now which includes:

cutting out dairy and wheat
daily pilates pelvic floor exercises
daily 5- 10 mins cardio on cross trainer
chocolate and wine on Saturday night only
substituting herbal tea for at least one ordinary tea or coffee per day

I am thinking of adding swimming in there.

Be interested to know how you are getting on.

LRD, when someone starts telling you stuff you already know, I wonder how you'd feel about saying, "Oh yes, I know, isn't it interesting?" And if the conversation flags after that, picking a bit of that information and saying "and what do you think of x?" That would make it clear that you do indeed know about the subject in question, and have the brains to discuss it :o

I personally think that I couldn't bring myself to say "yes, and?" - out of my mouth, it would sound sarcastic. I am trying to change that - to learn how to say things in a neutral tone, even negative things, because I find that as soon as people perceive sarcasm in someone's tone, they think "bitch" and turn their ears off. Even what sarcasm might have been well deserved. I would like to be able to say exactly what I think, but in a pleasant tone, so that my words are heard, without my tone drowning them out. If that makes any sense at all.

i am loving the statuary.

and slightly freaked out yet again by the simple notion of how changing the visible imagery of 'woman' around us could have such an enormous impact on how accepting we are of our bodies. i know it's obvious, but i've never thought of it in terms of roman statues instead of the modern media...

Tilly - may I book a day at the Feminist Spa please? I love this: 'the Spa is decorated with realistic Romanesque nude statues. Some of them look like they have had children etc.'

About attractiveness - I am sure a lot of it really is about what you see all the time. I will try to dig out the link on another thread to the 'normal breasts' site, which is really interesting in that if you look for a while then go past a newsagents, the boobs on Nuts or whatever really give you a start, whereas otherwise we're conditioned to almost not notice how strange they are (sorry if your boobs look like that but statistically, it's not common is it?!).

I agree about entitlement too.

Cupa - hi, I'm AnonWasAWoman/the OP. I am getting on ok-ish - I was way over-ambitious with my list but that was the idea, that I'd aim high and not worry what I didn't do. I have cut back a lot on the snickers ice cream/sugary stuff - mostly what I've done is snack on fruit and bread and so on during the day and keep the sugary stuff for the evening and that seems to take care of the sugar highs/lows nicely. The pelvic floor exercises ... erm ... well, now you've asked I'm doing them!

I think what's worked really well is going for walks and determinedly not using them to think about work or plan anything else. And the eating different fruit and veg, and the cutting back caffeine. That's been great - I feel so much better, I didn't realize how badly it was making me sleep and how headachy I was getting.

I've been rubbish at getting to bed early or getting 15 minutes downtime before I go, and rubbish at trying to start learning a language which I thought would be good.

Swimming is really good IMO - I should go but it's so cold, it's not tempting. It does feel great afterwards though, like all your aches have been worked out.

jacks - thanks, I will try that. I think you said what I was trying to say - that I struggle to find a neutral tone.

mad - it is genius isn't it? Tilly could design us a whole art course full of proper women's bodies.

lol, LRD, my brain went straight on to the 'real' bodies websites etc too.... are you scared yet?

out? ought. i think i need a lie down.

fortunately i appear to be gainfully unemployed at the mo... well, unemployes, anyway. there's not much gainful about it.

which means i can surf whatever i like, unless the children boot me off the laptop.

I'm gainfully under-employed ATM atticwoman - though I do go in to my son's school to cover the lunch hour

Thinking in some ways it's a good work/life balance - especially when like this week DH is away ( works away from time to time ) Would be nice to feel skills were better used though, even if not for that many hours/week

Perhaps I should do some voluntary work - maybe in Nursery School I'd like to work in one day ?

doh! no! i didn't mean say "yes, and?"! i meant saying yes and also blah blah blah. as in saying oh yes i know and have you thought about this? or i find it interesting that...? etc! god i would never be that rude and arrogant to say yeah and? what's your point? type thing

ok so potentially meeting up with a guy i knew a bit when i was younger, slimmer, pre-motherhood body etc. it shouldn't bother me i should feel confident etc however reality is a bit different.

i'm struggling at the minute confidence wise (as in appearance). i'm growing my hair back which is never a good look, i have put on a bit of weight and i'm possibly feeling a bit old and boring too. someone slap me or offer some ideas.

i think the just not caring about how i look, what size i am etc is not attainable for me. compared to most women i encounter i'm pretty laid back about it all but i still always have little flare up crisis attacks about it. just being honest. cross with myself for being silly and caring about all this at the moment.

I'm not slapping you but the last thing you come across as is boring! Remember he is probably thinking the same sort of thing about looking older/fatter/different ... everyone does it.

I always do that cliched confidence-trick thing where you tell yourself you're happy and calm and feel great - it works as well as anything else does IMO, and does at least remind you all the time that the focus here is you and whether he's good for you, not on him and making yourself suit him.

If this is text-flirt man, btw, I hope it goes well, it sounds very exciting!

(Btw, I did get what you meant about 'yeah and', just could see myself sounding sarcastic/patronizing. Thinking about it I think it's habit from quite a lot of time dealing with men who assume any reaction bar wide-eyed fascination and curiosity from a woman is out of line. Lurrrvley, isn't it? )

LRD I often think that women in our line of work (post-graduate study and teaching and reasearch) try hard not to appear 'too clever' in case it's 'offputting' - hence saying "ooh really? Tell me more!" about things we already know quite a lot about, rather than "oh I find that fascinating too! Have you noticed that xx" which is a better way of engaging than presenting yourself as a 'learner' - both for you and the speaker, as you can talk about more interesting things with someone who isn't (1) on a beginner level or (2) assuming YOU are on a beginner level and therefore keeping things simple.

Just a thought. When I moved to America after Oxford I thought I wasn't going to make any friends because grad students don't disagree in seminars over here. Someone would say "I think Frankenstein doesn't hold up to freudian scrutiny" (for example) and someone who disagreed with them would say "Yes! And also it does!" rather than "No, it does"! So I was saying "No! Because..." to everyone else's smiley "Yes! And.." - not so much a gendered thing as a stylistic thing here, but still, quite a shock to the system. I learned most of what I needed to know about cutting people off, managing people's talk-time In a seminar or conference, and keeping a meeting to schedule from my (female) advisor, who just doesn't suffer fools gladly, and will do a brief nod and "thanks for that, who else wants to contribute?" if she wants to shut down a blabbermouth who's talking without engaging their brain.
Genius stuff.

SAF I think it's pretty hard, when you've NOT been considering your actual sexual attractiveness to another person, to suddenly do it. But only because our ideas of sexual attractiveness are to do with the bodies of teenage girls. I prescribe you some classy racy novels where older women get it on, LOTS. Often post-children. I will have a think about which ones would be good. Older, post-children women have and enjoy sex just as much (and often more, thank you for bringing that up) and it's mad that we are sexually invisible. I am having the best sex of my life at the moment, but I don't look like I should be, because I am not 20 with long hair and a patriarchy -compliant body. What I am, is free in my mind and secure in my affection and attraction for my sexual partner.

It's bloody brilliant! I wish I could find myself from twelve years ago and say "Don't worry, it gets SO much better! You just need to grow up a bit, get more confident, and find a feminist man." :)

'It's bloody brilliant! I wish I could find myself from twelve years ago and say "Don't worry, it gets SO much better! You just need to grow up a bit, get more confident, and find a feminist man." '

I love this so much I feel the need to quote it.

Btw, this reminds me of the bit where Caitlin Moran says that women need to start talking about sex frankly 'and not just on Mumsnet', and I was caught between grinning and thinking 'oi! But aren't you a bit pleased Mumsnet exists for us to talk about sex on?'.

This is a totally unhelpful comment, but you say older, post-children women are 'sexually invisible'. And - unhelpful as it is for you because I can't return the favour - I am so grateful to people who post on here, because for me, that just isn't true. It's really nice to have that, so thank you.

activity log for this week:

Ran 5 miles, getting faster
1 pilates class
Cycled 10 miles to go shopping

i find the commercialism of christmas unsettling so am going to try and do all present shopping by bike!

that's a nice idea, TheReal. I love being on my bike and am concentrating on doing as much as I can by bike rather than driving. Not always possible to do everything by bike, but always fun to ride it rather than drive or walk. I think because I feel like a kid again!

I saw a friend with a same-aged kid to DS today, we had tea and macaroons and went to the swings together. She works and so do I, and since I moved out of the same area as her we have to drive an hour to see each other, so I only manage it every couple of months, but I was reminded today how worth it friend-time is.

I'm not loving sex at the moment. I feel like everything has changed in a not good way post cb. DH and I didn't have sex for 12 weeks (thank god) due to stitches and then until I stopped breastfeeding I needed a tube of lube it just wasn't any good.

I need to work on my pelvic floor, get fitter and find my confidence again. Enjoyable sex is at the end of that journey I know. It isn't anything to do with DH. He is happy as long as I am but I'm not.

Have given up on sleep training with DD and just gone for CC. I just couldn't face it any more and it was wrecking me. She is asleep with 15 minutes thank god so it's not hours and hours. Busy week coming up and then Shanghai for a week to look at housing there and then back to the UK. Busy, busy. :)

I like the Christmas shopping idea tilly - I am going to go by bus to Cambridge with DH to do a bit, but other than that I will try to do mine on foot, which will also give me a good excuse not to get frazzled driving to places like Bicester outlet and getting laden down with rubbish!

Well done on the 10 miles/ 5 miles - wow! Do you mind me asking how long it took you to work up to that? Or have you always been sporty? I ask as a person who's been wandering 4 or so miles.

comrade - oh, I'm sorry to hear that. I think there really, really needs to be more research into how women's bodies work - I think finally medics have accepted that lube is not actually the magic answer, but it'd help so much if they'd work out what is. I have a sneaking suspicion that the sort of people who'll happily research make sexual disfunction simple see that the same stuff doesn't work for women (no shit, since different genitals are the one thing that obviously is different), and then can't really be bothered.

And I think even nice men don't quite get how much it matters to try out slightly different positions and so on - I was chatting to a girl friend the other day and we both reckoned a lot of blokes don't seem to get that a few millimetres sideways or whatever is actually important, and the difference between really good/ok-but-not-very-easy/boring!

Anyway I hope you're making progress with it all.

blackcurrants - I'm so sorry, I've just realized I read what you said, found it helpful, then failed to reply because there was sex in the discussion.

I'm now looking back to what the American students I know did (we had a course where nearly half of us were American).

Your point about looking to what your supervisor does makes me think - I am going to try to keep in mind a couple of women I know who I think do this stuff well, and come across as polite but not either self-denigrating or arrogant, and try to do what they do.

Btw - I am so glad to hear your DD was asleep at time of posting! I'm hoping for many loooong peaceful minutes and hours.

TBH LRD I feel like cb wrecked my body but again there is so much wrapped up in that thought. On the one hand I want to minimise that thought because apart from some stretch marks that only appeared in the last 2 weeks of pg, a much softer body all over, a bad pelvic floor, a fanjo that feels different every which way etc it's not like I'm in pain or unable to have children again or anything like that. I feel that creeping sense of "why are you complaining about this?" and want to minimise it. I'm not sure if minimising it is loony too. Perhaps it isn't that much of a big deal.

I think the bible has a lot to answer for in saying that women give birth in pain etc. I think society has just internalised this belief that women just need to suck it up and accept it. I also think that once a woman has a baby she is deemed as no longer needing to be sexy or sexual either which makes us even less of a priority. Hot mom, MILF & cougar seem to be fairly modern as concepts.

It's also difficult to know how much and when to complain and I found this with bf-ing too. I was told it would be agony so just accepted that even when it was obvious that the latch was wrong. I was told that sex post cb would be rubbish and just to use lots of lube so I just accepted it (though obviously DH & I stopped as bad sex for one = bad sex for both in our house thank god) instead of dealing with it.

Sorry, this is a really long post but I don't have any mum friends I would feel comfortable discussing this with in RL and my lovely single friends just don't get it beyond feeling sorry for me. Thanks for letting me get this off my chest. :)

Thanks for posting. I feel both very lucky that I'm able to listen to you, and also a bit nervous posting as obviously I haven't got the experience to understand. So please excuse me if I'm saying the wrong thing.

I completely agree with you about the Bible having a lot to answer for - unbelievably, I think there are still people who believe that, or have subconsciously absorbed the idea. There was that man in the UK (medic!) who said labour pain was positive because it helped women bond with babies. Cue about a hundred comments from women volunteering to kick him in the nuts while he 'bonded' with his children!

I wonder about the idea that a woman who's had children wasn't seen as sexy ... I think maybe, in times before effective contraception, women with children were so normal, I'd like to think they were seen as sexy. There are those statues of pregnant women you get (I forget the name for them, but the prehistoric ones), and there are women like Katherine Swynford, who had (IIRC) six children and was considered extremely beautiful in her 40s and 50s. I don't know - digressing here but also thinking about tilly's point about realistic images of women's bodies and how they relate to good self-image.

Btw I don't think you should feel you have to minimize it. Childbirth is such a huge physical thing - it's really absurd how we are told it's not, and we're made to feel as if, if you get to have a normal childbirth you should be fine. I remember someone saying that the line 'the only thing that matters is a healthy baby' is really really upsetting/damaging, because it's guilting you into thinking that, if you have a healthy baby you must minimize how you felt about pushing said healthy baby out of your body or having yourself cut open, or else you're being mean to people who don't have a healthy baby. It's that crappy 'hierarchies of misery' thing that so often get used to make women feel they can't complain.

I am rambling and quite probably don't 'get it' either, but I am sure someone else will get it. Btw, I hate the 'just use some lube' thing, I think that is a really fundamentally misguided approach to how women's sexuality works. It is quite disturbing really - like suggesting if a man can't get an erection he should just strap on a dildo and stop worrying?

No, no, please don't take my "they don't get it" comment to mean you can't comment! :) I meant more like my single friends would just pity me and this discussion about a woman's sexuality just wouldn't occur because, I suppose, to them a married woman with a baby, obviously, has already snared a husband, so doesn't need to be sexual, and a baby, so doesn't need to have sex. This rather neatly comes back to the idea of mothers not being sexual beings doesn't it :o

My one friend who would get this is so desperate to have a baby that she just can't see beyond my "perfect life" (husband and baby) and would just do the minimising thing of telling me how lucky I am. Absolute hierarchy of misery.

You do get it :)

Do you know what's worse about the lube comment? It was said to me by my brilliant female dr who has 3 specialties: Paediatrics, GP, Female sexual health. :(

At the time I took it in the spirit I suppose it was meant in: Helpful advice. Now it just makes me think of lying back and using lots of lube so that your 'D'H can screw you even though you're not in the mood and without needing to bother with foreplay. Very nasty.