This birthday party really got me thinking. . .

[FrankNCock]

Went to a party today for a friend's 2 year old DD at The Most Pretentious Indoor Play Centre Ever and several things made me a bit

So there was the obligatory 'princess theme'. When it was time for the lunch, it was sandwiches that had been cut into shapes of a top and skirt, and pink squash in plastic mini-wine glasses. Kids sat at tables arranged in a horseshoe, all decorated in pink, flower petals, tulle netting, glitter, etc. The birthday girl herself sat at a separate table at the open end of the horseshoe. It was decorated sort of like you'd imagine Barbie's desk, complete with a giant fancy pink phone. And there was the giant pink felt crown.

Ok, so it wasn't to my taste, and if I had a girl I could not see myself having a party like this. But I really got annoyed at the separation of girls and boys.

There was a craft activity. Girls made headbands with ribbons and flowers and glittery shit all over them (all in pink of course). Boys were shunted to the far end of the table to decorate blue door hangers. Boys and girls were given different cups just to hold popcorn (princesses for girls, pirates for boys). Different party bags (girls had Peppa Pig, boys had footballs). At the end, girls got pink balloons, boys got blue.

I just don't understand why everything had to be so different? I felt sad for all of them, and I can't even put my finger on why. More experienced feminists, want to help me?

"it's boys who suffer too and are likely to grow up repressed and angry as their personalities are stifled."

Although boys definitely suffer from the rigidity of it all, they will at least suffer with more money because the kind of activities/toys that they are pushed towards at least develop the skills needed to succeed in the high paying areas of ESM. Girls, on the other hand are taught that good looks are the key to success which, unless you have supermodel bone structure, isn't going to decrease the pay gap.

I'm expecting DD1 in March. I don't know how much she'll be directly affected by all this, but I see the future as one long battle with the world... [hangry]

We live in a fairly deprived area, and yet the parents can all seem to afford loads of hideous pink frilly stuff, and slutwear inappropriate clothes for their daughters. Reading these posts, I looked out of the window ("working" from home!) to see a little girl, maybe 7 years old, on a pink scooter, in head to foot pink. Her friend was chasing after her on pink roller skates. I've seen the neighbours' kids wearing high heels - they are under 10! [hshock]

As I see it, either I have to move to a better area (but can't afford it) or keep her locked up away from bad influences!

My DD is coming up to her third birthday and has just started making 'pink' noises. I'm not against pink clothes (The cheapo places I tend to shop do everything in pink/lilac for girls or porate/surf dude, so not a huge amount of choice) but I dread the tacky themed parties.

Separating young children into pink/blue, princess/pirate is just so depressing to me, OP, so I hear what you are saying.

messy I agree, just mean that it's not good for either sex, and the repression of a softer, so-called feminine side in men can only add to the aggressive, macho, alpha ideal that is so damaging to society and results in resentment and violence towards women. Not to mention any boys who are struggling with their sexuality - I think that's much worse now than it was when I was a teenager.

CaptainNancy, that is what the local aspirational crowd round here is like too. (I love that block set though). All things 'girlie' are looked down the nose at, and princess gear is a mark of shame in my neck of the woods, though it is worn in an ironic sort of way occasionally. I feel very lucky, though I shrug a bit at pink clothing and think a little of what a little girl might fancy would do her good, but that's easy to say and do when I am surrounded by somewhat different values, girls who play a lot of sports and are very motivated in school. The DDs had pink or purple bikes though, that were perfectly fine as bikes go, ditto skates. If I were surrounded by the enveloping pinkness with no alternative perspectives available to the DDs I think I would be more adamant about my opposition.

I tell my DD that real princesses ride horses and do lots of work for charity...they rarely wear ballgowns because they get horse crap on them and they're too busy to do up all the buttons. She seems to buy that.

It sounds like an awful place for a party - bleurgh! The craft stuff and mini wine glasses remind me of toddler pageants! What happened to pass the parcel and musical chairs, or at least a good play area with slides, ball pits, climbing frames, etc. More democratic there as even the girls usually turn up wearing trousers, long sleeve shirts and socks, just like the boys.

CaptainNancy - there are all kinds of aspiration, those who favour the style of party the OP went to are more likely to be raising their daughters to aspire to becoming footballers' wives, and their sons to be racing car drivers, or footballers.

Before my daughter was born, I imagined I'd dress her in gender neutral clothing, but from a small child's perspective, she'd be badly dressed. I don't want her to have to fight any battles until she is old enough to understand the context. So we conform.

Sounds like a rubbish party place, I have used similar venues for parties for my girls and a) we always have about 50/50 girls and boys and b) they all run around on the climbing equipment, eat the same food and have the same party bag.

Where you see the gender divide is in the presents given, lots of pink and princess sticker books. I send brilliant books to parties (e.g Roald Dahl, Diary of a Wimpy Kid, Humphrey books) that girls and boys love to avoid this problem.

very true notjustclassic- they seem to have stopped the green/lilac/yellow gingham bedding, and the animal themes .

mathanxiety- we have those blocks (and several other sets by haba)... I seem to have rather described myself there, actually...

wholly yes- I realise there can be all types of aspiration, but 'aspirational classes' usually means a certain type, rather than aspiration in general. Having re-read, I think perhaps Frank was using the term in the generic sense, perhaps because she isn't a native Briton? I read it originally in the specific way referring to 'aspirational types' i.e. people who strive to be upper/upper middle class.

and while we're on this subject, what about Halloween? and the fact that for women/girls there are two choices: mini-witch or sexy-witch.

My DD point blank refused to go to a party last night as she didn't want to wear the spider costume I made for her. She thought people would laugh if she didnt' dress up as the obligatory witch.

Boys get to have all the fun dressing up as monsters, ghosts, skeletons etc

DD would have loathed that sort of party. Her 6th birthday party was a Crystal Maze party and all 10 boys and girls rushed madly around our garden completing challenges, getting equally as grubby and wet. Most of them wore comfy clothes and there was only one girl in a pink outfit (coincidentally her present to DD was a dog walking doll which DD thanked her for and then gave to DS who loves her). DD got board games, star wars lego, bug hunting kit, craft kits and a puffle. All of which were chosen by her school friends who know what she adores. We had pass the parcel and dancing to 80's classics and they all had a little trophy and a bag of sweets to take home.

Mind you we missed all the early consumer pressure by living abroad as expats for her first three years. DD didn't go to nursery (too expensive) or regular playgroup (no such thing), Tv was limited by language and we only had Cbeebies for two hours a day. All her friends were also expats and we spent most of our time outside freeranging the children in the local parks and woods. The atmosphere was much more on children having healthy bodies and being outside as much as possible (and eating lots more sweets!). She hasn't had a pink phase and picks and chooses the things she wants from the 'girls and boys' sides e.g. she has a hideous pink doll that she sleeps with.

The difference between there ang the UK was very very clear when we moved back, the gender divide seemed much more stark and came as a real shock to me.

Halloween this year saw DD3 sally forth done up as a mime artist and DD4 as Hermione Granger.

One of mine was a witch (and not sexy, old Woolies outfit) and one was a ghost (two girls). No-one told me that Halloween was gendered.

can i just say i am loving the idea of wearing disney princessery in an ironic way?

i'm reasonably proud of my girl's choices for hallowe'en this year - in years past they have veered towards the vampy, piratey, hallowe'en princessy feather boa type of things, but this year dd1 (11) was adamant she wanted to be a bumble bee, and dd2 (8) dressed as dumbledore, complete with vast beard and wig. i think we're out of the pinkery.

have posted lots about 'cinderella ate my daughter' in the past and it is a must-read.

i also wanted to share a small anecdote re scouts and guides. last year i happened to be running both cubs (8-10yo boys) and pathfinders (12-14yo girls) and caused great consternation one evening when my boys learned to sew on a badge, hoover a rug, iron their neckerchief, and make a cup of tea. the boys were fine about it - it was the first time any of them had ever been let loose with a hoover, a kettle, and iron and a needle and thread, however, one of the boy's dads (who also happened to run the beaver group - the 5-7yo boys) happened to be in the building and shouted to the boys 'why are you doing all that girl's stuff?'. greeeeeat. now i do have to go and look up the trans issue though. there's recently been all sorts of hoo ha filtering through from the states

oh, and we took all the girls fishing. it's actually outlawed by the guides here as it's murderous and Not Suitable. so we did it in secret. the girls loved it and particularly enjoyed the chopping off of heads. and then they got to cook them on the campfire and eat them. some rules are meant to be broken.

madwoman, that's fantastic, I loved fishing when I was a kid!

'toddler beauty pageant' - yes, the 'banquet' part of it definitely had that sort of feel.

This is really hard for me because I like the mum very much but am just and the whole thing. To be fair though, I think it is a package party put on by this particular play centre and I don't think the mum had a lot of choices to make. At least I hope that's the case.

'aspirational' - I did really mean the type that aspires to be middle class, but they haven't quite mastered all the lentil-weavery requirements! In our area, this is definitely the play centre to go to if you don't want to hang around with 'common' folk--at least that's the impression the owner seems to want it to have. I think she seems like a stuck up cow. Very terse with me, but happy to fawn all over my one of my friends who has lots of money

Wasn't there a thread sometime in the last year about someone wanting to find a spiderman costume for a girl? Almost impossible, she was finding it.

I find I am battling DH's attitudes much of the time - I fought for a toy cooker for DS and won, because DH cooks half the time so he accepted it was boyish enough - and then had a horrible job trying to find one that wasn't all pink and princessy (yes I know I'm buying into the gender bias by objecting to that but seriously pink girly shit really offends my eyes!). Got one in the end in primary colours which DS loves.

This Christmas I have got him a plastic crockery set (not exactly a teaset cos there's no teapot!) because he loves playing dinner parties with the stuff at playgroup - DH was all about that as well - but the one I have bought is again primary colours in a drying rack, so I will also be buying him a small washing up bowl so he can practise outside .

He has a mini-Henry vacuum (more from DH) and if he'd shown the slightest inclination for one, he'd have a toy pushchair as well - I discussed that one with DH and got the old face again until I reminded him that he had pushed DS in his pushchair almost as much as I had so was he ashamed of that? He backed down and agreed to a non-pink one, if DS wanted one.

Can he put into words what his objection is, Thumb? Or does the conversation begin and end with "too girly"?

Pretty much starts with that, tortoise, but after I've systematically pulled his objections apart, he retires mumbling
He hasn't objected too strongly to DS going to dance classes (tap and jazz) because he also goes to football class - but I'm not quite sure what's going to happen when I add ballet in! Perhaps I just won't tell him for a bit...

Amazing how the ol' chauvinism stuff rears its head again! And I don't think it's just because he's Australian, although that might have an added bearing on it I suppose.

Nah, mine's Australian and he...well, I guess we only have a daughter so I'm only guessing, but he rolls his eyes mightily at the 'Mother's Choice' brand and the nappies that say things like "Mums Get It" and whatnot, because he gets so insulted at being cut out of the loop of parenting, if that makes sense.

Just wondered whether it was a 'he'll turn gay' or a 'too girly - um I mean it doesn't reflect a boy's interests' or a 'he'll get teased' or a combination. DD has a play power tool set and cars and an insane amount of footballs and the like, but I think it's easier to get people to accept girls doing 'boy things' than the opposite, because patriarchy.

What Trillls said. It's fine to like fairies and pink, etc, but little girls shouldn't have to love them and little boys shouldn't have to feel like they can't play with them.

When I have a little girl (if I have one, I suppose) I'll be fine with pink, but I'm big on getting kids outdoors so it'll have to be a pink shirt under her dungarees.
None of these Bratz-doll style clothes, no shoes with heels, no dresses you can't run around in though, I won't be havin' them. :)

An element of "it'll turn him gay", yes, but I blinded him with science on that one so he's never dared mention it again! He gets a bit antsy about fairies and the like as well - but has accepted Harry Potter, dragons and other fantasy creatures so I tell him he's being silly about that too. Which he is. Your DH sounds far more advanced - I thought better of DH while we were in the UK but as soon as we moved over here, he reverted to ol' Aussie standards (there are a lot of them out in the Sticks - I have been heavily patronised by one or two!)

DS is only 3.11 (argh!!!) so nothing about teasing yet - all his peers at playgroup etc. all play with everything as well. I wonder what the male equivalent terminology is for "tomboy" - something other than "cissy" or "girly" (or other equally derogatory term) would be good.

CY - Agree totally. I'm not a big fan of pink as it is - but my sister is and has created the same fanatical reverence for it in her 3 DDs as well. My eyes can't cope for long at her house...