controlling women during pregnancy

[Rollon2012]

I've heard a few comments over the years about the hole teetotal during pregnancy thing is not about healthy babies but used to control women.

I wondered straight away , do feminists share this view?
im on the fence generally , although I went cold turkey smoking wise (threw my fags in the bin on the way out of the surgery after getting results) never smoked since and didn't drink at all.

Or is it an excuse the pg women who dont have the willpower to abstain for drinking for 9 months to make themselves feel better??

just wondering what your views on this, (I appreciate it may be a sensitive subject)

I went on a riding holiday in the USA when I was pregnant first time round and rode until I couldn't get on my horse without a leg up. I got a lot of patronising drivel from my GP when I mentioned my plans, as if I was quite incapable of making my own mind up at all, so I didn't mention it to him again. I'm surprised all the debate on here has been mainly about smoking and drinking when I found on both occasions that it was stuff about stress from work, should I be driving and whether I should do prison visiting ( I was a solicitor at that time) were the major areas where I was made to fel like a child.

I wanted a big maternity t-shirt with a logo on it that read "I'M PREGNANT, NOT STUPID."

I was lucky in my MW (I live in the USA so you pick your own - and pay through the nose for care - and I took care to find someone who I wouldn't find patronising) but the general advice does assume that women are themselves children or just idiots. The chirpy tone and crappy puns of "what to expect when you're expecting" type books and websites drove me up the wall.

Over here, you're not supposed to have any caffeine AT ALL. Which is to say, they know that too much can be harmful, but rather than say, for example, 'don't have more than X cups of tea or Y cups of coffee" they say "Do not drink caffeine." Seriously. Sounds pretty bonkers, right? I absolutely scandalized my pregnant friends by having a cup of tea or green tea every morning after about the fourth month (couldn't face it in the first 4). They were all off anything caffeinated and worrying about, for example, there being caffeine in a coffee-flavoured cake. Seriously. Because the "IF YOU HAVE CAFFEINE YOU ARE ALREADY A BAD AND UNFIT MOTHER!" scaremongering. It's patronizing and it's nonsense.

But before we all smugly agree that Americans are silly, let us accept that this is the attitude that most people also have towards pregnant women and booze. We KNOW that too much is harmful (and we also know that small amounts, consumed infrequently, isn't harmful) - but we don't think "well let's give women the facts and let them decide" - we think "women cannot be trusted to think for themselves, let's just tell them not to do things, without sufficient evidence for our advice."

Zoe Williams wrote a couple of great pieces about this for the Guardian a few years ago, here and here .

Thanks for the links blackcurrants.

So rollon - let me get this straight....are you remotely interested in the feminist perspective on the control of women's bodies? Or do you just want an excuse to stealth judge women who dare to smoke when PG?

that's interesting higgle - and infuriating too.

Probably a lot of it is fear of litigation. A lot of these risks are theoretical, for example it's possible you'll fall off the horse and land awkwardly, or it's possible that you are the one person who's super sensitive to even minimal amounts of alcohol. So the medical establishment and those How To Be Pregnant books aren't going to lay themselves on the line, just in case. And of course the general public pick up on that, and it gives them 'permission' to chastise you, for your own good, of course.

Why arent u allowed any Caffiene at all?? is this in the US???

You're not allowed coffee at all because YOU are not in charge Rollon, we know you think coffee is fine, but unfortunately someone else is making the rules now.

See what happens when people appoint themselves in authority over others? Control

you cant compare caffiene to cigs though

okay lets oput this scenario forward, your daughterv is expecting shes knocking them back and puffing away and making no effort to cut down, would you sit back on the stance that its her body or would you express your worries ,???

or is that being controlling.

As a student midwife, the issue of "policing" pregnancy is one of my passions. I feel strongly that it is mostly about finding new ways of controlling women - now that women have more power in other aspects of life, we must find new ways to keep them in check! The particular hysteria over alcohol is also pretty baffling given that IMO obesity is becoming a MUCH greater, genuine health risk to mothers and babies. And yet people are freaking out over a glass of chardonnay.

I'll admit that I used to judge pregnant women who smoked. Now I think, that woman may have cut down from 20 cigs a day to 10. Or that cigarette may be the only thing keeping that woman's stress levels low enough that she can get through the day. Who the hell are we to judge?

I would assume she has enough of an understanding about health to make her own decisions in light of her individual lifestyle and risk factors.

You cannot judge that stopping smoking is better than going cold turkey. The research suggests the opposite.

Meant cutting down is better than cold turkey.

You're missing the point Rollon and tbh it's been pointed out enough. I'm going to leave that part of the discussion now.

Bue I'd say obesity is demonised enough for all women, not just pregnant ones.

I've just thought of those horrible programmes on bbc3 called something like Bad Teen Mums or something, where we're invited to point and sneer at pg women smoking or whatever. Part of the same thing, imo. Social control is such a powerful tool. tied up with class, too.

rollon you seem to be saying "I think controlling women in pregnancy is terrible except for the way I want to do it." Is that right?

OP, give over.

The no alcohol during pregnancy recommendation is not due to men thinking women don't understand that a little is ok and a lot isn't. It's due to the fact that most people vastly underestimate their alcohol consumption, men and women alike, pregnant or not. So if 2 units is safe, but people are drinking 4 units and not realising, it's not a crazy, anti-feminist piece of advice to say no alcohol during pregnancy. If you are the minority of people who know for a fact exactly how many units are in that specific glass of wine, well done for being informed. But most people would be surprised.

But there's nothing wrong with 4 units!

Spam that is not the point. The point is that there is no increased risk associated with moderate drinking (proven in a BIG study). Instead of informing women of the TRUTH, they are lectured to , moralised to and treated like irresponsible, irrational individuals.

There are risks with excessive drinking for everyone. That does not stop the publication of safe drinking guidelines despite the fact that your argument (of people under estimating the amounts drunk) holds true for ALL people, man/woman, pregnant/not.

besides, some of this advice comes from women at natal classes. If it's control then your own sisters are controlling you

Women can be agents of the patriarchy

Yes Carpetmistress, but women also live in mainstream society - and are affected by it's values good and bad. So if society says that all proper girls like pink dresses, or women can't be trusted to make up their own minds about pregnancy issues such as alcohol consumption, well loads of women will internalise those messages. Why wouldn't they?

they don't have too. They can stand up and fight

Is that what you do, carpetmistress?
I do, in my own little way, by analysing the messages that society sends us, and seeing if there is any basis to them, and whether they damaging.

whatever happened to taking to the streets?

You mean like Slutwalks, Reclaim The Night, Million Woman March, that type of thing?

yes, that type of thing