controlling women during pregnancy

[Rollon2012]

I've heard a few comments over the years about the hole teetotal during pregnancy thing is not about healthy babies but used to control women.

I wondered straight away , do feminists share this view?
im on the fence generally , although I went cold turkey smoking wise (threw my fags in the bin on the way out of the surgery after getting results) never smoked since and didn't drink at all.

Or is it an excuse the pg women who dont have the willpower to abstain for drinking for 9 months to make themselves feel better??

just wondering what your views on this, (I appreciate it may be a sensitive subject)

As i say i haven't decided this for myself.

There are alcoholic/drug addict women getting pregnant because under the law they cannot be forced to get an implant/coil fitted, although they will not be able to keep the babies, in some cases the babies will be disabled.

I deal with the 'fall out', so i have a different take on it because i see the results, in the UK womens rights in pregnancy are being upheld, regardless of the conscequences.

I didnt drink or smoke during pgs. I didnt want to.

However the blanket ban on drinking was introduced whilst I was pg with one of my DCs and I remember being very annoyed. Not because I wanted to drink but because it was publically admited that there was no evidence to say it was dangerous to drink a small amount. They were saying NO drink because of the people who drink a lot.

Treating us like fools. Those who will drink to excess in pg with do that with or without extra advice. The do it because they have a problem.

Those who do not have issues are perfectly able to moderate their drinking to a safe level given accurate information.

Agree Birds.

If we didn't have the information with which to base our decisions there would be just as many accusations of women being controlled through lack of information. If you chose to continue to drink alcohol after you've done the research, and you feel that you can't/don't want to give up then no-one is forcing you.

I don't think the fact that women give birth to both boys and girls negates it being a feminist issue Birds (not that the OP was asking that anyway - she was asking for a feminist perspective). However, if something that only affects the female population i.e. pregnancy can't be classed as a feminist issue god knows what can! (And as another side point another human being is only involved in the pregnancy at the point of conception and once the baby has been born - in between it is a foetus).

Plus a feminist perspective can be applied to anything e.g. why boy racers exist.

And stopping men from abusing their children is not the same applying conditions before babies are even born. The latter begins to encroach on putting the rights of the foetus before the rights of a woman. The former is law that we all have to abide by, regardless of sex.

It is a fine line between control and advice. NICE were considering tests to see whether women were smoking during pregnancy not long ago. States in the US are trying to pass laws whereby women who miscarry can be prosecuted. These are examples of where advice crosses over into control (and blatant misogyny). I would say, the more guidelines, the more it is controlling. (and on the point about listeria - prepacked salads are a well known source of listeria and that isn't even mentioned in any guidelines I have read).

Personally, I object to this feeling of mistrust and judgement surrounding everything I eat/drink or even do while I am pregnant and that I am suddenly incapable of making an informed decision (or even using instinct). I also dislike the way your life and body suddenly becomes other people's property and total strangers feel perfectly obliged to comment on your size, shape and even touch you because you are pregnant. The OP has also fallen foul to this by describing women who choose to drink during pregnancy as not having the "willpower" . That is immediately making a judgement on women who make an informed decision about whether they drink or not.

As Lenin says men aren't subjected to submit to this kind or quantity of advice at any part of their life.

And don't even get me started on how wrong it would be to force a drug addict to have an implant.

I worked on the assumption if you wouldn't give it to a baby ease off having it yourself, in terms of guidelines.

The control is an interesting question though. When I was pg with ds1 I was at a wedding, I had not drank for the duration, but my FiL had (at my request) poured me a small glass of wine which I had kept back for the toasts.

A man at our table had been steadily drinking and reached over to take my glass "stating that's not for you, I'll take care of it for you", when I objected he was utterly incredulous and kept insisting I was not allowed to drink it, and "it wasn't on" despite myself and others at the table pointing out it was fine.

About 5 minutes later after everyone forcibly changing the conversation, my dh wanted my attention (he was Best Man) before I had got a metre from the table he leaned over, snatched my glass and drained it.

FiL and others were furious, I returned to various tempers, his poor wife was alternating between mortified and silently fuming (she had been in the toilet for his initial outburst). He then insisted "it was for you're own good, you do not drink when pregnant". FiL went to the bar and purchased me a glass of wine and he was frostily ignored until he sat elsewhere. (His wife apparently went nuts at him later).

From my POV, their are many conditions you can have that mean you cannot consume alcohol. Pregnancy is a very visible condition though, and one that makes you physically weaker and vulnerable than in your normal state. This (admittedly drunk, but still no excuse) man used my condition to bully and coerce me into handing over my drink. He then used it to justify stealing from me.

If I hadn't been pregnant, he would not have attempted to control me.
But I can't decide whether the vulnerability of pregnancy is the issue, or the alcohol guide lines.

What a horrible man!

My point is that women are not beung dictated to, they aren't because it isn't written in law.

"Should alcoholic men be forcibly sterilised?"
There alcohol intake doesn't effect the health of another and they wouldn't get residency of a newborn.

I believe the term is arsehole, yes Trills, he was vile.

It reminds me of all the advice they give to men who live with pregnant women about not smoking around them. And those signs you see where people congregate to smoke and everyone else has to walk though saying 'extinguish all cigarettes when a pregnant woman needs to walk through'. Oh wait, that doesn't happen.

And of course they apply this level of concern for women to all aspects of her pregnancy, that's why they give paid leave to all pregnant women in the first trimester. And have those free canteens for pregnant women who live below the poverty line where they can get free nutritious meals to make sure they get all the nutrients they need. And make sure all pregnant women living in poor housing are moved into hotels. Oh hang on...

I disagree -I think alcoholic men's alcohol intake affects the health of lots of people they are around. Although I haven't got statistics to prove I would imagine the likelihood of them having unprotected sex would be greater - thereby risking the health of the woman by getting her pregnant (and STDs). Not mention abusive alcoholic men - both abusive to their partners and children.

Men who drink heavily whilst having unprotected sex can most certainly have an affect on the child they go on to concieve.

I had a bloke come up to me outside work and berate me for smoking whilst pg. I wasn't but even if I had been, why was it ANY of his business. I bet he would never have dreamed of approaching a complete (male) stranger and telling him that he shouldn't smoke because it was bad for him....

Most men who are alcoholics or are drunk find it difficult to have sex.

If a man is acting in a way that affects anyone else whilst drunk, they can be arressted and charged, so unlike a pregnant woman is made responsible for their actions under the law.

Women are not accountable under the law, i see this daily.

Pregnant women are advised how to look after themselves and their unborn child, just like someone on warfarin is (i am using this example because i have been on it and had the leaflets given to me).

You cannot n the one hand say that 'the state' is trying to tell pregnant women what to do and that is wrong, then on the otherhand remove all responsibility for the whole pregnancy and birth process, it is either one or the other.

maybe 'most' men who are drunk can't have sex - but 'most' women who re pg can make up their own minds re acceptable risk. same thing

I find I'm having to search far and wide for non-patronising pregnancy information that doesn't imply that, as I'm pregnant, I must have had a lobotomy for lunch and can't handle scientific research or statistics. I tell myself that some standard texts - like the dire Emma's Diary - perhaps exist because there are women who need the information who have literacy difficulties etc, or aren't functioning in their first language - but I resent the disempowering combination of patronage and mistrust. I am a 39 year old professional with four degrees, and am more than capable of judging risks on matters such as alcohol for myself. I've had to train my GP into accepting that her advice is just that - advice. I will consider it, but I am the ultimate arbiter of my own decisions.

Hungrydragon, what a maddening experience. I am 17 weeks pregnant with my first baby, and am loving it, but there are also so many coercive and frankly ignorant external narratives to be resisted, and I know I will end up having to deal with more and more of them the more visibly pregnant I become. Fortunately, I have a good line in stone-walling expressions, a reputation as a ball-breaker, and no one who has spent ten seconds in my company would dream of patting my bump. At least, I don't think so...

You have to be given the facts to make up your mind and that is all the guidelines are.

Without the advice you cannot decide on acceptable risk, some doctors think that it is zero alcohol, other advice points out that alcopops, as opposed to white rum in fruit juice, is dangerous because of the mix of chemicals and alcohol, if your drink is alcopops and i know some women who drink nothing else, then it is probably better to go teetotal.

i had an occasional glass of wine while pregnant with both of mine, although the guidance had changed in the 7 years in between. i do think some of it is not trusting women to be able to make an informed choice.

i experienced a registrar lying to me towards the end of my pregnancy when he wanted to induce at 3 days overdue because that was what suited the hospital and he was really aggressive about me refusing this. i do grudge being spoken to by a man younger than me like i am somehow incompetent and incapable of understanding risks. i almost felt smug when i saw him post-birth (following a very slow induction, failed forceps, emergency C/S, significant blood loss) and he had the grace to look shame-faced for his "this is a totally natural process" BS.

i do think that doctors are generally becoming more accepting of patients reading up for themselves on their condition, coming up with suggestions, etc but when it comes to pregnancy and childbirth we're supposed to just accept whatever they say. the reality is that i had a very rare complication with my first birth and a very rare complication with my second pregnancy - of course i ended up knowing more about it than most HCPs I saw, treat me like i'm an adult or GO AWAY!

it isn't purely the state...

on BBC breakfast (what piece of tabloid trash this show is!) a lady came on to talk about FAS and her child who had it....

the spin the beeb put on it was 'there is no safe limit'...(the childs birth mother was a student who gave him up after birth...i would think she had been drinking like a fish)

then i found people at work saying things like 'it's not worth the risk' (What risk??) ..even a friend of mine challenged me on my tiny glass of white (at a party) ...this kind of soft-touchy feely thing has nothing to do with science, or evidence...but everything to do with a wish to tell women in particular what to do.

Of course alcoholics can have sex! If they couldnt they care system would be less under pressure than it is now.

Alchoholics can be permanently pissed without being falling over drunk.

We do not know the amount of damage done to the sperm of a man who is a problem drinker. FAS is a HUGE problem and we dont know how much of the damage done to the child is through the mother's drinking alone.

Why I wonder? Maybe because the vast majority of research has been done on the 'incubator' and not the inseminator.

Another example of letting the man get away with it whilst the woman takes the blame?

Perhaps.

I HATE the way women are infantilised during pregnancy. We are not walking wombs. The attitude to drinking has altered substantially in the past decade, even though the evidence hasnt.

I never felt infantilised during pregnancy. Interesting.