Women like sex toys and porn.... some interesting info

[solidgoldbrass]

here I remember this time last year doing some research into the history of women's sex magazines and finding out (gosh what a surprise) that most of what 'everyone' thought was a crock of shit.

What's the point of this?

I don't like either. I'm a woman. So...your thread title is a bit of an inaccurate generalisation, non?

and so what, anyway?

It's a report written by some retailers about the market opportunities for selling sex products to women. Which doesn't make their conclusions a surprise or interesting. It makes them something they can sell for £975 a pop to their target market of:

"Who should buy this report?

? High Street Retailers
? Fashion Houses
? Perfume Houses
? Banks and Investment Advisers
? Manufacturers of erotic goods
? Erotic film producers
? Erotic Retail Outlets
? Luxury Goods Manufacturers
? Chemists and Supermarkets
? Hotel Groups and Spas
? Airports
? Marketing Agencies
? Property management companies"

From here

Their 'key insights' on that link I have posted identify exactly what their focus is:

A few highlights:

"Erotic Goods for women offer many retail opportunities"
"The UK market may be worth over £1bn within 5 years"
"The door is open for innovatory retail outlets to be designed and tried"
"There is an immediate revenue opportunity despite the economy"

Just because some women "like" pornography doesn't make it any less damaging.

The report on line isn't as interesting as the original article which I will try to find. The point is that there is this constantbanging on that a) women don't like recreational sex, unusual sex, toys, gadgets or porn and b) that there isn't any such thing, when a bit of digging around generally points up the fact that if a product is good and women become aware of it, they are interested in sexually-explicit media, toys, games, costumes etc.

That isn't surprising if you do research that doesn't locate the analysis in its political and social context. Their interests are not in examining women's perceptions and experiences, they are in finding ways that people can use and make money out of the current situation.

And the conflation of porn and recreational/unusual sex does not engage with the arguments that feminists are making. It's a huge oversimplification that is often made to try and dismiss a feminist voice.

'The point is that there is this constantbanging on that a) women don't like recreational sex, unusual sex, toys, gadgets or porn and b) that there isn't any such thing,'

Sorry? Where is this constant banging on? Direct me towards that and I might bat an eyelid

?I despise any company that sells sex 'toys' (please don't call them this - it's again a subtle marketing plot to make them seem harmless and 'fun' when in reality they are anything but?

?they normalise the sexualisation of women in stereotypical and utterly tasteless ways?

?Sex is not a game and often the use of these things is not harmless. In fact the promotion of them could be described as harmful to all women.?

Sarah, the first and last of these quotes are from you, you are the worst offender!

Why are sex toys harmful to women ?

Harmful?? Perhaps if they renamed vibrators as "masturbation aids" rather than "sex toys" they would be less harmful?

I am not sure how a bit of battery operated wanking has harmed me tbh.

''The point is that there is this constantbanging on that a) women don't like recreational sex, unusual sex, toys, gadgets or porn and b) that there isn't any such thing,'

Higgle, bringing quotations from another thread to back up your point is seen as poor form, just so you know.

PLUS neither of those quotations is saying either of the things that SGB is suggesting there is 'constant banging on' about. I was stating my own feelings about them, NOT saying that a) women don't like recreational sex etc etc or b) there isn't any such thing.

I mean FGS if you're going to cross threads then at least make sure you ARE backiong up your point and not trying to stuff someone's words into what you want them to be saying.

The harmful argument is on another thread folks and was to do with marketing rather than the actual product...but Higgle doesn't care whether you understand that or not, she's just having fun trying to make me look stupid.

No, Sarah, you said these things on the other thread, which is closely linked as it is about sex toys. Everyone is very welcome to have a look what I said on the other thread.

You said on this thread that there was no "constant banging on...." and yet you have been pushing this message home yourself. It would be very boring to set out quotes from all of them but there is constant "banging on" about women not liking porn and being the victim of sex toys on other threads at the moment.

As a perfrectly normal grown up woman of mature years I do get very annoyed when I'm lectured to that enjoying being tied up spanked or having a bit of fun with some buzzing pieces of plastic is an indication that I'm abused/depraved/harmed in some way!

I'm certainly not trying to make you look stupid, just pointing out the inconsistency. "Poor form?" I've been on here a very long time and not come across this one before!

Ah yes, the usual dishonest conflation of porn and recreational sex.

I love recreational sex. I despise porn because it's misogynist, exploitative shit on the whole.

Porn does not equal sex, that's all I can be arsed to say on this thread. Because it continually needs saying, becasue some people continually bang on about porn and sex being the same thing.

I'm not banging on about 'women' not liking whatever. All I said was that I don't like it. That's different.

Oh and I'm not trying to imply that you are damaged. I was trying to make a different point but I really don't want to go into it all on here because it's a complete hijack of SGB's thread and not relevant to it.

If you've been on here a while you should know not to drag threads across the board.

But I think that Ann Summers exists and does well is testament to the fact that women like sex toys. Furry handcuffs, rabbit vibrators are all pretty mainstream these days. I don't meet many people who 'bang on' about how terrible this is, really, I don't.

And I can't see the fact that women buy and use sex toys or read erotic literature is a problem for feminism. Why would it be? It's only plastic that people use at their leisure to relieve a sexual urge. Literature (from Mills and Boon hearts-and-flowers-three-dots mildness to really explicit stuff) is not a problem either, only words on a page, after all!

What I do think is a problem for feminism is pornography- which can depict real degradation of women.

But there is porn for women, made with consenting non-exploited performers and not full of gaping anuses and verbal abuse. It's a myth that women are 'not turned on by visual images'.
Sure, porn and sex are not the same thing. But an insistence that all porn is not only exactly the same but the root of all evil is usually a sign of some kind of sexual dysfunction or at least a very controlling and negative attitude towards other people's sexuality.

Yes, but the problem is that while I agree that women can find porn arousing, it's a problem for feminism because there is the element of doubt that the person is not doing it out of their own free will or out of a desperation for money and that's a turn off.

I also think that there is a distinction here to be made between porn and visual/aural imagery that is sexual in nature but not porn as they occur in real life as part of real life and are not staged.

Incidental sexual things like stumbling across a couple having sex or hearing a couple going at it in the next hotel room may be very arousing, but it's not porn.

'The point is that there is this constantbanging on that a) women don't like recreational sex, unusual sex, toys, gadgets or porn and b) that there isn't any such thing, when a bit of digging around generally points up the fact that if a product is good and women become aware of it, they are interested in sexually-explicit media, toys, games, costumes etc.'

I disagree with this.
I think the banging on that's done nowadays is the opposite, that women MUST love casual sex, outfits, 'experimentation', must be more than just vanilla, must be pro porn, cool with their DH's going to lapdancing clubs etc. I'm sure lots of women do all this and are happy.
But there are also loads of vanilla mundanes ( SGB) who don't. And who feel their sexuality is being shoved in yet another box of someone elses' devising. It's every bit as stifling in our new 'whore' box as it was in the 'Madonna' one if it doesn't suit you. That's not liberation either.

HoneyMomster - maybe you are right about some parts of society, but just recently MN seems to have been the preserve of those who not only want to throw their hands up in horror about all these things, but ram their views down everyone elses throats too. No justification, explanation or logical argument, just a lot of strident "I'm right, you are wrong" assertions.

I'm not sure "Madonna" is the right word here, I think she generally prefers to be in the "whore" box, unless she is wearing tweed and playing at bieng and English Lady.

Ahem, I don't think Honeymomster meant the singer Madonna, Higgle ....

On the contrary, I think the arguments against porn on Mumsnet are intelligent and persuasive, with much more evidence to back them up than any I've seen from pro-porn posters.

I also disagree that there is "constant banging-on" about women's dislikes. Whereas I've often heard constant and insidious jibes that women who are anti-porn must be uptight or sexually repressed and that's such a flawed argument.

I think a significant amount of women enjoy sex and experimentation, but that doesn't mean they feel entitled to have orgasms at someone else's expense through filmed porn. Women are political - as well as sexual - beings.

Higgle I think you're being a bit dismissive of people's opinions Most people on, say, the anti Lovehoney ads 'side' have good reasons for it, it's more than 'throwing hands up in horror'. And I don't see ramming it down peoples throats either, but explaining their views. which is fair enough. I'm just using the LH thread as an example.

I do think that we're expected to be horrified at being 'uptight' or 'prudish', it's the worst jibe that could be thrown at you. Well, it's all subjective, what you consider prudish may be wildtimes for me, or you may consider me prudish but I consider it private.(generic you). I say embrace your inner prude, if that is your nature. It's as valid a sexual identity as being MsKinky.

I totally agree with the anti-porn arguments. I am against it myself, mainly for the reason that real women are used/exploited/abused to make it.

But this thread was about toys. I haven't investigated Lovehoney to see the range of stuff they sell.
But sex toys are not porn. Nobody is harmed in the manufacture of a bit of plastic with a battery in it. Lots and lots of women own these things, if they didn't like them they wouldn't buy them.

I'm not sure I want to see them advertised and marketed at me at every opportunity though. There is enough over sexualisation going on already in advertising without adding to it!

It is a bit like saying you are anti clothing because some of it is made in sweat shops. Some porn may be made by people who are exploited, but some is not. I'd like to see teh availability of "Kitemarked" porn where those who want to view it can be sure it was properly made. Actually I'm not that interested in porn myself, but I'm not opposed to anyone looking at it. I'd prefer it was more "readers wives" style than blow up barbie doll.

Not really, because in order to comply with the public decency laws and keep ourselves warm, we all have to wear clothing. We don't have to use porn to survive or comply with any laws in this country, do we?

I like your argument though, in relation to the flawed extrapolation that if you're anti-porn, you must be anti-sex.

If you are anti-porn even when it's produced by consenting adults and doesn't feature abusive language then I do think you have a controlling and probably dysfunctional attitude towards sex.