In light of MNHQ's recent statement that the feminism section is in fact not a feminism section but a section 'about' feminism, perhaps we need to be warning people about this up front?

[Beachcomber]

I'm of the opinion that it needs to made clear that whilst the title may be 'feminism/women's rights', this section is quite different to other boards that deal with feminism/women's rights.

It isn't fair to mislead - lots of posters expect the section to be a place where feminist views can be freely explored without fear of posters' mental health being questioned, and a zone where misogyny is unwelcome. In reality, pretty much anything goes here and whilst it is, of course, MNHQ's prerogative to run their site as they see fit, some sort of disclaimer about the section seems only fair in order to forewarn posters (especially posters looking for support or exploration of sensitive issues).

Perhaps it would be an idea for there to be a header at the top of the section stating MNHQ's position?

All suggestions welcomed .

And we tried ignoring trolls. And not acknowledging their posts. And they pulled a big strop about how everyone was mean to them and they were leaving. And they started a thread about it. And kept coming back to say how mean everyone was. And it was supported by MNers who like to pop onto this section and question the mental health of posters because they hold different opinions.

They started a thread? The trolls?
This is where it gets difficult because what do you define as a troll?

We have to be careful with labels because people are accused of being a troll if they haven't posted on that topic before; if they are a newbie; if they vehemently disagree with someone; if they repeat their pov over and over; if they contradict themselves.

The troll hunting and accusing is just as tiring and derailing to a thread as the actual troll.

I've zoomed to the bottom to answer slhilly's post of about half-one today, but I think a sticky is a great idea and am all for the wording suggested.

One more thing though - we'd have to ask her if she's happy for her thread to be used in this way, but I really think forkful's 'newbie' thread should be stickied alongside it (and left to run). There's a lot of wisdom and friendliness in that thread that could be added to, plus we'd be able to nudge newbies over to that thread, and answer their questions there, rather than in a less appropriate thread.

It'a a 101 that everyone could contribute to. We need one. Half of the aggro comes from genuine enquiries that mean well, but are made in the middle of sensitive threads.

Someone very wise once said, that the problem with just ignoring is that that is what women are expected to do a lot.

Getting wolf whistled in the street? - just ignore them
Getting felt up in the pub? - just ignore them, don't make a fuss
Getting snide remarks about maternity leave at work? - just ignore them
Hearing lots of sexist jokes at work - just ignore them, it's banter
Seeing sexualised images next to the kids' magazines in Smiths? - just ignore them, no-one's forcing you to buy them
Seeing sexualised images on TV aimed at young people? - just ignore it, turn over

Doesn't actually make anything go away though does it.

I can't ignore someone posting, for example, rape myths or that someone is 'overthinking' something that bothers them. I'm fed up of shutting up about such stuff. Feminism is liberating because you can call out the shit rather than just ignoring.

If I thought it were obvious to everyone who was posting offensive stuff to get a rise, ignoring might be an option. But it doesn't seem to be. Hence ignoring also ceases to be an option.

I do do stacks of ignoring when it is not affecting anything really, but it isn't an option for all of it.

Brilliant idea Victor.

Rhubarb0 - I'm wondering now if you're missing some of the picture here. There is a facebook group dedicated to coming here to stir up trouble, which I would call trolling. There are two forums that have boards dedicated to stirring things up on here, which I would call trolling. They specifically highlight posters to target, Dittany was one. They state they do it, and once banned give the user names they did it under. Well they did for a period, they seem to be in some underground bunker now. Apologies if I am telling you something you know.

Glad to have made a positive suggestion! I'm going to try to do more of those...

Trolls are attention seekers. The easiest way to tell a troll is what happens when you disengage and ignore them. The one who has been the most blatantly offensive is still posting. The one who was harder to spot tried so hard to appear reasonable, but the second they were ignored, went absolutely ballistic.

Alice - true; good post.
Sometimes you get drawn into not ignoring because someone is being attacked and you have to stick up for them.

MNPuffin's post makes me think that's an even better reason for a stickied '101' thread. If someone is posting 'women do lie about rape' in a sensitive thread, then they can be nudged over there, along with any posters happy to answer if they have any questions. If the poster with the questions doesn't want to discuss in a more appropriate thread, well, that's a pretty good sign that actually, they aren't interested in learning or debate - they want a bunfight.

I'm usually happy to chat about stuff like this. I realise not everyone feels it is their responsibility to educate (and god knows, with the internet out there, I can't blame them: sometimes I feel that way myself), but forkful's thread was really positive and posters would be able to pop over and answer Q's as an when.

Alice - I quite agree with your post that all too often, as women, we are trained/conditioned to ignore things.

But in this instance, the derailers especially, are seeking attention. And therefore to ignore them is to prevent them getting their jollies.

I do think the number of individuals involved in the ongoing targeting from outside of MN is actually quite small. They use multiple names and IP addresses and obviously searched by user names because they popped up on threads Dittany (and specific others) had posted on within minutes.

If we ignore them then those MNers who are not entirely overcome by the sisterly warmth of feminist ideology will accuse us of being elitist/ unwelcoming/ refusing to tolerate other views.

It's always the refusing to tolerate other viewpoints, with no irony whatsoever...

Oh yes, they are small in number. I've seen the guy who set up the facebook group trawl around the internet trying to recruit troops, and is usually told to fuck off.

BIWI - so I have either:
Stop them getting their jollies by ignoring and leaving, for example, a rape myth unchallenged which could then perpetuate that myth in the minds of others and be triggering for a rape victim
or
Let them get their jollies, but ensure that for anyone else reading they see the rape myth challenged and know there is a counter argument to be considered and the rape victim knows there are people speaking out about this stuff

I have to choose the latter. The former it too awful for women for me to consider.

Trivial stuff, I do ignore. For sure. That makes sense. But that doesn't, sadly, cover the whole problem at hand here.

Marginally, that's the problem I have with the "don't feed the troll" policy; some trolls ARE plausible at the beginning and I (because I am in general a gullible muggins) engage with them in the vain hope that they are in fact genuine.

Like the recent deleted thread (maybe the one you're referring to) where someone impersonating a pregnant teenager put forward the Baron-Cohen / Pinker view that women were intellectually inferior to men wrt the Sciences. Because that is such a widespread view in society and because I like to give people the benefit of the doubt I (and some others) engaged with her until another poster pointed out that the same OP had gone from being extremely dyslexic to and extremely good speller in the space of one day!! It then became a highly amusing thread as posters got wise but it was nonetheless frustrating to have wasted time trying to make rational arguments to a troll.

When we give suspicious posters the benefit of the doubt and later find them to be trolls, it is just a huge waste of time and good will. When we treat them warily or with derision however we are accused of being unwelcoming and narrow minded.

It's just another tightrope that we have to walk.

Yes, in those circumstances, challenge. But also report. And challenge without resorting to insults which result in the the challenger being deleted.

Then once challenged, ignore. And continue to report if MNHQ are too slow to respond.

And I know it's not as black and white as that ...

But an awful lot of the derailing stuff that I've seen on here isn't ignored. Posters engage with them, for whatever reason. Rhubarb has done it on this thread. LRD did it on a thread earlier. Although it was taking the piss out of one of the derailers, nevertheless it also gave him a platform to continue to whine.

I would just like to add something that has been bothering me for a long time.

What I find the most saddening about trolling is when genuine MNers, gather ranks, using the troll as a platform from which to either attack a specific posters/s or to have a go at a section.

We might not always all agree or get on, but I'm afraid when I see posters do this, my heart kinda sinks and I have to update the old spreadsheet of people to watch your back around on MN.

Ain't nice.

That pregnant teenager troll thread was ace, and imo a brilliant example of MNers dealing with a troll effectively. He/she threw quite the hissy fit when we started discussing chickens

I hope you don't have me marked down on your spreadsheet beachcomber - I'm certainly not trying to have a go.

The very thought BIWI

No absolutely not - you have made some really important contributions on the feminist section (you were mega on that horrid troll thread).

I know you are not having a go and I don't mean posts like yours at all.

Beach - one person's "troll" is another person's "persistent and struggling poster"

I would always defend anything I see as unfair on ANY section of mn, eg Bob.

Put me on your spreadsheet and have done.

Actually I bet I'm already there...

Thanks for starting this Beachcomber and others for your input.

I think that MN should should delete those who they think are "de-railers" or posts for new members which are de-railing.

An analogy would be the Madeline McCann threads where people were posting "opinions" and obv Justine was worried about legal action etc so she just kept deleting posts and popping up on the threads saying "MN is here to make parent's live easier" or some such.

MN are aware of the de-railers/concern-trolls. They are usually male, post predominately here, relationships and maybe take a stroll into AIBU.

Those of you reading this thinking "eh de-railers/concern trolls" can't see a problem - please just respect the opinion of feminist regular posters on this.

Those of you reading this thinking "eh de-railers/concern trolls" can't see a problem - please just respect the opinion of feminist regular posters on this

Ah, toe the line eh?

No way, Jose. Not if I disagree.