Have ordered Wifework....slightly concerned about the after effects

[TheProvincialLady]

I hadn't encountered Wifework before lurking on the feminist boards, but it sounds so interesting that I have just ordered it from Amazon and I'm really looking forward to reading it. But at the same time a little concerned about what I will actually DO with the enhanced knowledge that I am a Wife.

I willingly gave up work when I had the DC. We both discussed this and it was what I had always thought would be the best thing for the children. 5 years later, we have two children and I work a few hours a week (and really enjoy it). But I am now basically responsible for all the housework, all of the time. And getting the children ready. My husband does help, but he is not responsible and I'm not sure how this happened. It affects my choice of job but not his, the hours I work but not his, etc. Before children I still did more housework - partly because our standards are somewhat different - but also because he was raised to do nothing in the way of housework and has an underlying belief that it gets done anyway.

Anyway, a slight resentment of all this has been bubbling under the surface for some years now I suppose, and now it is all about to come to a head when I read Wifework. As the children get older I want to work more hours outside the home and so DH and I will be more equal in that respect, and I can foresee a battle over the housework and the children. So how can I approach this in a constructive way?

I posted this on the feminist board because I value your opinions and would be interested in any theoretical stuff as well as practical advice. Thanks.

Sorry, am still here enjoying the thread but not participating because I feel like crap and am not up to the intellectual rigour required. And thinking lots. The practical how-do-we-divvy-it-up stuff is food for thought, but the wider issues are really fascinating and I can't wait to read the book.

TPL - I rather enjoyed reading the book. It made me aware of stuff that we were doing more or less equally, as well as the stuff that we weren't. Reading it, I admitted for the first time that i) having two very young children was a catalyst for inequality in our marriage (as well as being a marital 'crisis point' that it was okay to find hard at times) and ii) feeling occasional resentment didn't make me selfish or delusional. I also realised that on some fronts, we'd managed to retain equality - so there was stuff to feel good about too.

To my surprise, a few weeks after I'd finished it, DH read it, without prompting. He then initiated a serious discussion of what we could change, and what we should plan to change later down the line. We haven't argued about it at all, which surprises me. I keep noticing he's doing more ... I think it's made him more aware of changes he could make, and in turn it's made me more willing to speak out if something feels unfair. It will be a long, long time before we get domestic balance but I feel like we've got a shared goal now, which is a good thing.

TPL - I don't think you need intellectual rigour to discuss how your life is and how you would like it to be. What I have already picked up from the book (and I haven't read it all yet) is how we "do things for love" for our partners, that they don't even think they need to do, let alone reciprocate. The whole thing is so insidious.

Wow Frozen, that is a great result.

Portofino I think I felt a bit attacked earlier on in the thread by a couple of posts and feeling sorry for myself as I am, I didn't want to respond with stuff about my personal life and relationship (I only ever discuss it on here when something is really important to me, and it's rare).

One thing that I don't think has come up on this thread yet is - how do same sex female relationships work with regard to housework and childcare? Obviously there will be a lot of variation but I just wonder to what extent things change when you take a man out of the dynamic.

TPL, I understood reading this that both Leningrad and her partner are women.

Oops...will go back and re-read then, thanks.

I don't think you have been attacked on this thread at all. But taking a man out of the dynamic also applies to lone parents. It would be interesting to do a study in how "2 female" households compare to "male/female" households compared to "lone parent" households, or "male/male" households. No particular order there. I just wonder if any studies have ever been done about the "happiness" of the adults and children in each scenario?

Oh I need to include "shared parenting households" TOO.

Don't feel attacked provincialLady! If it was me I certainly didn't mean to, I'm very aware that my relationship is a work in progress and I keep wanting to defend myself and DH and, erm, sometimes I probably do that by getting keen on the theory instead of looking at the practice.

leningrad posted about her same sex relationship TPL if you look back. obviously can't generalise from a study of one but i'd think there'd be a good chance of women being more considerate and aware. not all obviously.

not more considerate as in inherently or by some consideration gene but through being women who have grown up in a patriarchy and experienced it and especially having already rejected some of it's gender dictates.

there was some quite attacking, 'suck it up you whingebag' type posting early on but don't let a couple of people dictate the taste left in your mouth when so many of us have not been like that

I wouldn't necessarily agree that women are better that being "more aware" or " more switched on" in the home. I think that sometimes it is a dynamic where other women or other men are. I think it a role that we learn, and one we either accept or reject according to our personality when we live on our own. Culture and society and upbringing probably affect the role we take on when we live with someone else.....

two anecdotes that made me think of this thread:

1. dh went away for work last week. I also work ft, and DS is one. me to my DM: I dunno how I'll do it all.' her: 'Oh I love it when your DF goes away! So much less cooking and laundry and picking up!' me: 'That is cos DF is someone you look after, whereas my DH is someone who halves my workload.' her: 'good point.'

I did like the quiet, watch-what-you like part after DS was in bed but I wastoo tired to enjoy it.

1. After DH got back from his trip I suggested that he got his 2 colleagues who'd helped him a thank you gift. I then reminded him to buy them, reminded him to write the notes, and reminded him to take them in. He was verygratecul for the suggestion and said I was a genius etc, but still wouldnt have done it had I not been there remiding. It's not that I object to making the suggestion, it is more that I dont think it would cross his mind to think about wat he could do to further my career so reflexively. And I am conscious that my DH is more of a proper partner than most.

I can add an anecdote to yours, blackcurrants. Dh knows I am having a shitty time at work. He took dd to the carwash on Sunday. On Tuesday I bought a bunch of flowers. I joked when he came home - oh look you bought me some flowers to cheer me up. This is a bit of a "joke" in our house. He remembered that he DID in fact buy me some flowers on the Sunday and they were dessicating in his boot. I told him to pick off the dead ones and treat his admin at work......and she WAS happy with half a bunch of flowers.....So both of us HAD flowers but none of us had the full sentiment. A bit sad really.

portofino i don't mean that women are necessarily more aware and/or considerate by virtue of being women. i'm just speculating whether the experience of being gay and having to reject a massive part of gender expectations, eg. have sex with men! attract men, be what men want, find a husband, you need a man to have a baby and blah blah blah would mean that through experience their consciousness of gender issues and inequality might be higher than the average heterosexual woman who has fitted in with gender expectations up to that point.

obviously within that group you've still got all the variations of personality etc but they have had life shaping experiences that logically might incline them to be rather more sceptical of traditional gender roles and ways of doing things.

porto i feel you better list us some of your dh's saving graces and qualities before we think he's doomed and wonder what you're doing with him

He's lovely really. He just doesn't "think". He works really hard and comes home and just wants to chill. He is very much a "get on with it" kind of person whereas I am much more emotional I think. He is fantastic with dd and we laugh a lot in our house. A lot of it is down to him being a bit older than me. He was 46 when dd was born, and whilst very hands on with her, I don't think he gives much thought to "parenting" in the wider sense.

My copy of Wifework arrived just now.

I'm a single father and the children live with me, I know a few other resident dads, and housework etc. doesn't seem to be a problem.

In fact I think it's easier on my own than with a partner.

So perhaps it's male/female relationships that have more problems.

I think that's true keepon - I've heard people say it before on here, that when their partner goes away for a few days they actually find the housework aspect gets easier.

i think so trucking. it's that dynamic. housework is just housework after all until it's not - and it's often not in the context of a marriage - it becomes symbolic of a lot and revealing of the dynamics of the relationship for example.

I think without doubt it's male/ female relationships that make housework a problem.

Masses of men live without a woman and get on with their own housework and do it perfectly competently and well. And then they move in with a woman and suddenly, they stop doing it.

It's definitely to do with male female expectations in relationships I think

I'm not normally such a sensitive little flower but yes it was the suck it up, loser ones that put me off replying when I was still feeling ill. It's hard to give an accurate impression of my relationship with DH in words. In so many ways he is a far better partner than most men I know of in RL and from reading the relationship boards. But I'm still not willing to let this drop. Ultimately it doesn't matter if 90% of women are happy doing what I do and if they also do it standing on their head. I'm not happy with the division of labour in our household and that's why I posted, but if I thought he was a useless lazy feckless tosser I would just leave him rather than try and sort it out.

How depressing though - I have often thought lately that my workload would go down in some ways if DH was away. Not in other ways though. He is very considerate of me having rest time without the children. The main problem is that he is so messy and he genuinely doesn't care or notice unless we are having visitors, when he suddenly does and it all gets put away again only to start back at square one. The responses earlier about men 'not caring' about tidiness (because it doesn't reflect on them and there is almost always a safety net of wife/partner/mum/daughter) were very enlighteneing and I will put this to DH.

I also found the comparison between attitudes towards food and housework very interesting. I have had anorexia and still struggle, and for me it has been about controlling an aspect of my life when I have felt powerless in other areas (not DH related). In the past my response to DH not doing enough housework has been to become an uber efficient housewife, turning it into a challenge to be perfect. It's the same bloody thing isn't it?

LRD my book arrived too this morning - shall we start a new thread? I'm going to get stuck in this afternoon.

TPL - thing is there are some posters who come on here purely because they don't like feminism/feminists and see an opportunity to come and tell us there is no problem or we're all mad or just need to grow a backbone etc. trick is not to take it personally because it really isn't about you or your situation it's about them and their agenda ok?

glad you had a lightbulb by the way. yes i can see how food and home work can interrelate - in a way our homes are a bit like our second body in terms of a space that is ours and we control and live in etc. so yes i don't think it is surprising that control issues in one could have their reflections in the other iyswim.

also our homes and our bodies are things we are judged on.

but main point was - don't take the oh for gods sake such it up you dummies posters personally - it really isn't about you.