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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

She was asking for it.

129 replies

garlicnutter · 29/08/2011 00:06

Sorry to post and run (am knackered) but it looks like a good time for this one to be taken out for some fresh air.

What you wear and how much you drink has little to no effect on whether you'll get raped.

Elaborate, please ...

OP posts:
aliceliddell · 29/08/2011 16:31

CRIKRI - good point - have you read stuff by Ray Wyre(?), a criminologist dealing with rapists & murderers, lifers generally. His research showed that attitudes to women, sex & rape were no different between convicted rapists and ordinary men. Depressing stuff. (will try to find link)

garlicnutter · 29/08/2011 16:35

Blimey, really, alice? :( I find it hard to believe and hope it's wrong.

I do think men generally go through phases of feeling 'expected' to talk like aresholes, usually while they're young. I like to think most of them wise up.

If that study compared rapists with other criminals, I would expect the finding though. They all feel entitled to take what they fancy without permission, using force or deception.

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garlicnutter · 29/08/2011 16:58

AW, that's horrible :(

The law would be on your side, as it is now. You had given blanket refusal. Bullying you to say "yes" doesn't count as having freely-given consent.

This is from Baroness Stern's 2010 review:

The 2003 Act makes some matters very clear and it is important they should be widely understood. It says that one person having sex with another when that person has not agreed to it is rape. The law does not say force has to be used for it to be defined as rape. Violence is not part of the definition. The absence of consent is the defining factor. And the absence of consent can be to one form of penetration although there has been agreement to another ? the court will not be satisfied if the perpetrator thought that there was consent but it was unreasonable for him to think that. The Act says: ?Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.?

The inclusion of ?reasonable belief? is considered by some to be one of the most significant changes brought in by the 2003 legislation, where an honest but unreasonable belief in consent can no longer result in the accused?s acquittal.

All these legal changes have been in a similar direction, to move from the underlying presumption that victims are likely to be lying and were somehow negligent in letting the rape happen towards a standpoint that sex without consent is rape and all other factors about a person making a complaint of rape are irrelevant to that central fact.

In the law of England and Wales there is now no question that sexual intercourse without consent, where there is no reasonable belief in consent, is the crime of rape, whether the people involved know each other or not,
have had a previous relationship with each other or not, or are married .

OP posts:
garlicnutter · 29/08/2011 17:22

"An honest but unreasonable belief in consent can no longer result in the accused?s acquittal"

Re-reading that, it strikes me the law already has the definitive answer to "asking for it". You cannot be asking or consenting by your location, style of dress, level of inebriation or miserable acquiescence. If your rapist could not have REASONABLY believed in your consent, EVEN IF HE THOUGHT you were asking/consenting, the court is directed not to acquit.

So, there we have it - the 2003 Act is on the side of unconsenting women, unequivocally. It's still going all wrong, so the problem must be those damn myths: infecting victims, police and jurors.

How on earth to make this more widely known??

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UsingMainlySpoons · 29/08/2011 17:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AliceWyrld · 29/08/2011 17:31

And shift the focus towards believing women and girls, putting them first, and not speculating about any possible way in which their story might not be true.

garlicnutter · 29/08/2011 17:34

Good call, Spoons :)

www.thisisnotaninvitationtorapeme.co.uk/

And .

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garlicnutter · 30/08/2011 14:00

young male gangs with a habit of casual violence

Garlic's True Stories pt.2

I am 16. It's a bright summer evening; I am waiting for the bus into town. There's a group of lads, also waiting, about the same age as me or a year older. They're a bit high and/or drunk. I get the usual sexist crap about my appearance. I don't feel worried.

Some more of their mates arrive; the atmosphere alters. The comments get more aggressive, then somebody's touching me, pulling my clothes, and they're all laughing. I try to keep answering back - don't look scared, the bus'll be along soon - but am becoming agitated. One boy tries to kiss me. I push him away, hard, and he gets angry. He's calling me a prick-tease. Oh, shit.

Catching the eye of one of the new arrivals, I realise I've met him before: he knows the boys in my group, who are also "hard". I remind him. They all step back, apologising profusely - it seems my friends are "harder" than them! Thank goodness ... They leave me alone until the bus arrives, when they help me on board, send their regards to the boys I know, and act like old buddies.

I was fuming - the only thing that saved me from assault was my friendship with other males; without that, I could not have saved myself!

This was the event that prompted my father to organise some serious safety training for me.

OP posts:
garlicnutter · 30/08/2011 14:56

Garlic's True Stories pt.3 - Safety Training: combat & confidence

I'm not claiming this is the only way, or the best way, for women to protect themselves. It's how I was taught, that's all. It has saved my life more than once. I will not be presenting it in any sort of order.

Learn to Fight

I learned how to deliver a straight uppercut (and, later, knocked my father out with one Wink ). High heels make a useful weapon. You can stamp, hard, on someone's foot with one; kick with one if you can kick-box; take one off and use it as a spear.

You should be prepared to injure an attacker swiftly and severely. Whether you can kick-box or not, learn to kick a man in the groin with your feet and with your knees. Learn to twist his testicles with your hand, very hard, from in front and behind. You should be able to do this behind your back.

If you can't get at the groin, you can wind an opponent with a hard punch to the solar plexus. You have to do this very hard - put your whole body in a trajectory through his middle, towards his back. This is the secret of all good punches - target yourself beyond the part you wish to hit. You can punch with your elbow or head as well as your fist.

Learn to do an arm-lock: wrench one arm behind his back, so tight his hand is up near his neck, and simultaneously yank his head back with your other arm under his chin. You must do this very fast and hard, when he's off guard. Unless you're fearsomely strong, you won't injure him but he won't be able to go anywhere without you pushing him. I've done this quite a lot, while running pubs!

Be prepared to kick, with full force, anywhere you can reach. Legs are much stronger than arms. If you're lying down, you might be able to get a good kick under his chin (I've done this too.)

Bite, but make sure you bite on a very tender place - genitals, lips and tongue are vulnerable; so are ears but some people can successfully ignore ear injuries. Biting and scratching external flesh is more of an irritant than a deterrent.

Last resort: poke an eye out. This will blind your opponent and cause them agony, so obviously you should only do it if you're on the verge of being killed. You do it by scooping your thumb in the eye socket, fast and firm. (I nearly did this to X#1, who was strangling me - I just pushed a bit and he got the message.)

It is true there are pressure-point techniques that can stun or even kill an opponent, but that part of my course was cancelled so I haven't practised and can't describe it. You can find the info on the Web.

Women often have no experience of fighting to win. It's a great idea to take a course in at least one form of combat for this. I'm ever so pleased that lots of little girls now do kick-boxing or judo.

Although I've used some of these techniques, the main point is the confidence you get from knowing you have the skills.

Walk With Confidence

Looking at women walking around, you'd never guess we all know the importance of this. Stride! Keep a good rhythm going, swing your arms easily, look ahead not down. Chin up, like they said in school :)
If anybody says you walk around like you own the place, that's very good!

Be Aware of Your Surroundings

Look at people. Don't stare them in the eyes, but register their person and let them see you have. I was asked to retain a description of everyone I came close to on a busy pavement - couldn't do that now, but it's good training.

Do not be on your ipod or phone while in any situation that may be even slightly risky. You need to use your ears for information about what's going on around you.

If there is somebody around who's making you feel nervous, turn and face them. If there are only the two of you around, you can politely ask them to cross the street as you feel nervous. Or just stand still and wait for them to pass.

Be confidently courteous to anyone who might be a threat. Don't assume aggression. This gives you the advantage, should you need it, of surprise.

... tbc ...

OP posts:
HeifferunderConstruction · 30/08/2011 15:37

"you can politely ask them to cross the street as you feel nervous. Or just stand still and wait for them to pass."

What? seriously? I don't see that working too many times lol

HeifferunderConstruction · 30/08/2011 15:44

Have you ever actually asked someone to cross the road GB??

the only reason I ask is couldn't it aggravate inot a situation IYSIM ??

garlicnutter · 30/08/2011 15:51

... contd ...

Garlic's True Stories pt.3 - Safety Training: communication

I'm not claiming this is the only way, or the best way, for women to protect themselves. It's how I was taught, that's all. It has saved my life more than once. I will not be presenting it in any sort of order. This is the second post.

Talk to Your Aggressor

There is a finite range of reasons why somebody might breach your boundaries. Knowing what they want, and how much they want it, helps you decide how to respond. Some criminals are intent on total domination instantly, but they are very rare. All aggressors are human; try to find his humanity. Your aim is to end the situation without having to fight.

Start by looking him in the face, if you can. Breathe and stay calm. Politely ask what he wants. If you can't see his face, try to touch him in an unthreatening way and ask. When you've got him talking, you can turn to look at him. (I've got another story about this!)

I have seen off TWO home intruders by politely asking them what they wanted. The Queen once did it!

Staying calm and polite is extra-important if your opponent is using a weapon. You're unlikely to exit a fight uninjured if there's a weapon, but you can still disarm him with humanity.

Listen Carefully

Many sexual aggressors are secretly afraid of women. Bear this in mind; it's because he sees you as "a woman" that he's attacked you, your aim is to become "a human being" to him, reassuringly ...

Pay full attention to what he says, his apparent state of mind and how anxious he is feeling. Answer him kindly and respectfully - it may well go against every grain of your being, but you're in a survival situation so concentrate. He's probably bursting with adrenalin; it won't last long. The idea is to keep talking until he's come right down.

This doesn't mean you have to agree with him, just show interest and consideration. If he's being really rude about you, for example, calling you a filthy whore or something, then you know he's seen you as a symbol of "bad" women and that bad women are sexy women. I have replied to this with "Well, I'm not filthy am I? Is there something you don't like about my clothes?"

Keep talking until he's relaxed enough. Then run like hell, shouting very loudly if there are people anywhere nearby.

If You're Suddenly & Violently Attacked

Make as much noise as you possibly can, even if he told you to be quiet. Remember you're shouting for others to hear - instead of shouting "Get off me", shout "I don't know this man!" or even "FIRE!" so others don't kid themselves you're having a row. If you can't get away, fight to maim and keep shouting.

If You're Being Watched

Let him see that you've spotted him. Get your phone out and let him see you call the police (emergency). If he still hasn't gone away, take a photo and shout that the police are coming. More important to lose the stalker than to gather evidence; nice if you can do both.

If You're Flashed

Keep a distance. Point and laugh! Or stare and go "Eeeuw!" Make a note of the - erm, features, as well as the face, so you can describe him to the police. Call them.

I'm kind of expecting to be flamed about the talking part of this advice - it's what I was taught, and has worked for me at various times. And, no, we shouldn't have to but there are crazy people all over the place, and sometimes we can't avoid them.

Interestingly, I wasn't told to avoid dark alleys, etc. My trainers felt everyone should be able to go anywhere unmolested and, importantly that, the more people allow fear to restrict their movements, the less support will be available to those who walk around (Reclaim The Night proposition.) If you do go down dark alleys and suchlike, though, you're well advised to stay very alert. That's true for men as well as women.

OP posts:
garlicnutter · 30/08/2011 15:56

Garlic's True Stories pt.3 - Safety Training: "The Gift Of Fear"

This is a really sensible, inspiring book about gut instinct and the fear response. "The Gift of Fear: Survival Signals That Protect Us from Violence" by Gavin de Becker.

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garlicnutter · 30/08/2011 16:00

Yes, I've asked someone to cross the road quite a few times! It's really just a way to check them out - and, once or twice, I've felt bad about it because the bloke was quite upset at having been perceived as a potential threat.

I mean, I didn't turn round and instruct them, it was more of a "Don't mean to offend you but I'm a bit nervous with you walking behind me here ... would you mind crossing the road?"

OP posts:
HeifferunderConstruction · 30/08/2011 16:00

Interestingly, I wasn't told to avoid dark alleys, etc. My trainers felt everyone should be able to go anywhere unmolested and, importantly that, the more people allow fear to restrict their movements, the less support will be available to those who walk around (Reclaim The Night proposition.) If you do go down dark alleys and suchlike, though, you're well advised to stay very alert. That's true for men as well as women.

good stuff , as a young girl the quickest way home was a long hilly street covered in trees the neareast houses were via backgardens etc at night it was pitch black barely see your hand infront of your face. I was never scared going down quite relaxing lol,

Of course my mum thought differently like go the long way!!!!! but the long consisted of 2 rough pubs at chucking out time i go more wierdo's then lol

garlicnutter · 30/08/2011 16:01

Spot on, Heiffer, it's not the darkness you need to worry about but the weirdos!

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HeifferunderConstruction · 30/08/2011 16:02

Yes, I've asked someone to cross the road quite a few times! It's really just a way to check them out - and, once or twice, I've felt bad about it because the bloke was quite upset at having been perceived as a potential threat.

I mean, I didn't turn round and instruct them, it was more of a "Don't mean to offend you but I'm a bit nervous with you walking behind me here ... would you mind crossing the road?"

_ well I'm surprised its worked, what would you have done if they were like 'errm noo' ?? it just struck as quite ..well..cheeky.

garlicnutter · 30/08/2011 16:26

I would have said sorry for offending you, I'll just wait for you to pass. Or crossed the road myself. Not the end of the world either way - I felt nervous, so I acted on the feeling by facing the person and speaking to them. Didn't really care if they thought I was a freak, why should I?

The policemen would have said "If you don't know whether your actions averted an attack, you've done the right thing."

OP posts:
MJHASLEFTTHEBUILDING · 30/08/2011 16:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

HeifferunderConstruction · 30/08/2011 19:05

I suppose you were polite so no big deal

GirlWithTheMouseyHair · 30/08/2011 19:20

Apologies for only skim reading the thread but adding to the voices that what you wear has no impact on whether you will be a victim of a sexual predator.

Last Friday afternoon, 5:30pm, stood in the rain by a bus stop with my toddler splashing in puddles with me, wearing legging and a jumper that obviously showed my 6month pregnant bump, I was sexually assaulted by a man who seized the opportunity of a vulnerable woman not in the position to fight back or give chase.

Possibly the ultimate opposite example of "asking for it".

HeifferunderConstruction · 30/08/2011 19:23

OMG did u tell the police?

aliceliddell · 30/08/2011 19:35

GWTMH are you OK? Did you report him? Rape Crisis will give you good advice and support.

MJHASLEFTTHEBUILDING · 30/08/2011 19:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

GirlWithTheMouseyHair · 30/08/2011 19:38

yeah called the police after calling DH (in hysterics of course), and police have been pretty amazing to be honest.

Can't walk round my area on my own now without collapsing in a panic attack and fits of hysterical crying. But plenty of women go through a hell of a lot worse, as indicated on this thread.

To think the number of times I've stupidly walked home a bit pissed wearing provocatice clothes through not the safest of areas....

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