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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

She was asking for it.

129 replies

garlicnutter · 29/08/2011 00:06

Sorry to post and run (am knackered) but it looks like a good time for this one to be taken out for some fresh air.

What you wear and how much you drink has little to no effect on whether you'll get raped.

Elaborate, please ...

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aliceliddell · 29/08/2011 14:01

garlic my kindly meant advice to you is - don't.
I pretty much agree on the lap dance/strip clubs

nenevomito · 29/08/2011 14:03

The only person I know who was raped, was attacked by someone she knew well. She was sober and in her own home when he got into bed with her and attacked her. His explanation? She had been flirting with him and had given him confused messages. Yes. She confused him by going to bed alone, putting on pyjamas and going to sleep. Her explanation? He was a rapist who abused her trust when she said he could stop over on the sofa.

The point I am trying to make is that you are only going to get raped if you are with a rapist. If you go out in a bikini and don't meet any rapists, you will not get raped. If you go out dressed in full winter clothes and meet a rapist, you will get raped.

Saying its to do with what you wear and what you drink is just another way of placing the blame for the rapists actions onto the victim.

AliceWyrld · 29/08/2011 14:03

Garlicnutter - the police officer that said that sounds like a scare mongering idiot to me I'm afraid. How on earth would he know that all men who fantasise about rape go on to do it? Do the police have the means to monitor all men's brains, and then they log what they think, and match it up to crimes?

I'm challenging it cos this is the kind of behaviour that fuels rape culture. A man in authority tells a group of women who are in a situation where they are expecting to be told facts and listen to him, something about rapists that he can't possibly know. But that makes the women live more in fear.

Pan · 29/08/2011 14:07

AW - yes re the police officer. It's just random nonsense. Rapists DO visualise themselves 'doing it', and preparing the arguments that support htemselves doing it, but that doesn't providde an automatic connection for all.

garlicnutter · 29/08/2011 14:13

YY, babyheave, you are only going to get raped if you are with a rapist. If you go out in a bikini and don't meet any rapists, you will not get raped. If you go out dressed in full winter clothes and meet a rapist, you will get raped.

AW - he told me this in the context of having conversations about fantasy. Maybe I'd been out with someone who talked about a rape fantasy, I don't remember. Assuming he meant detailed fantasy, it ties in with what aliceliddell said about lapdancing clubs. Policemen spend a lot of time talking intensely with criminals; I think they are fairly well qualified to remark on their mental processes.

The warning comes to me sometimes when women talk about sexy fantasies. It's common for women to have a "rape fantasy", which isn't really about a rape but more to do with some hot stranger being overwhelmed by desire for her. If my tutor was right, though, it's a totally different thing from the rape-thinking man's fantasy.

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OneMoreChap · 29/08/2011 14:14

Bear with me; there's an author who I quite like who says there are certain type you should avoid (the gut instinct type of thing I think HerBeBolloX referred to)

He starts by saying "An undisputed truth is that "stranger" rapes only constitute a minute number of rapes. An overwhelming majority of sexual assaults occur between people who know one another. Sometimes intimately, sometimes peripherally, but it is someone you have regular dealings with."

Danger signs

1) Insensitivity for others/emphasis on self - Does this person put his wants above the needs, feelings or well being of others? Is getting his way more important to him than other people's welfare? Often this can go beyond mere selfishness and border nearly on an "assumed divine right." Often these people will justify a particularly vicious action with a flip comment like, "Hey, that's how the game is played." Such a person has no understanding that he must co-exist with others. Because he simply exists he thinks the world "owes" him whatever he wants. A common tactic of such a person it to make you feel bad for not doing what he wants.

2) Belittling behavior or attitudes towards others - Does this person habitually make nasty, belittling or degrading comments about others ? especially under the guise of joking? Does this person think he is better than others? Does he look down on others? A nouveau riche aristocrat? Is he a racist? A person who thinks that race or social position makes him superior can also assume gender does too. When you think you are superior, an assumed right to ?take? what you want often follows.

3) Negating behavior or comments - Closely related to 1 and 2. Does he try to tell you what you are feeling or thinking? Or worse, tell you what you are not? Comments like "you don?t really mean that" are serious indicators of someone trying to negate you. A person who negates others is trying to take away the other person?s thoughts, feelings and needs and attempting to project his wants onto that person. The most obvious example of this is "Well even though she said ?no?, she really meant ?yes?".

4) Hostile and/or threatening language - What words does a person use? Choice of words convey subconscious assumptions about a particular topic. For example a man who generically refers to women as "bitches" does not have good assumptions about females (or much respect). It is all too easy to dismiss this behavior as just "blowing off steam." But if it is a constant behavior, it goes far beyond that. Someone who habitually uses violent or threatening language should be carefully watched for possible escalation. It?s on his mind already. It?s a uncomfortably short step from ?thinking about? to ?doing?.

5) Bullying - This behavior is especially dangerous. Does this person use overt or subtle threats to get his way? A bully uses the threat of violence more than actual violence. Most often bullies are not willing to risk conflict with someone who can hurt them (an alpha male), and will instead chose to intimidate someone he considers weaker and safer. Someone who is bullying over other matters can easily turn to bullying you regarding sex.

6) Excessive anger - How easy does this person anger? Is he a "Short Fuse"? Does he boil over at the slightest problem? This is an indication of chronic anger. A person who explodes over a minor issue is like a full pot boiling over on the stove. It?s not that the issue is all that important, but that he has so much anger already, any more causes him to explode. Often people with chronic anger look for targets to vent their anger at. This could manifest as physical fights, abuse, or rape.

7) Brooding/ revenge - Does this person hang onto his anger long after the situation is over? Will he still be stewing over something while everyone else has moved onto other things? Will he become anti-social and glare at the source of his anger from across the room? Will he insist on taking revenge for real or imagined slights? Both indicate a petty and obsessive personality. A brooder fixates on something and then works himself into a frenzy over it. A person who seeks revenge "has to win" and is willing to take it to extremes. Refusing such a person?s sexual advances can turn this tendency towards you.

8) Obsession ? This is a close cousin to number seven. It is a major factor with acquaintance rapes. This is the person who won?t leave you alone. He insists on ?hitting on you? long after you have told him no. He is always trying establish forced intimacy (see ?bonding process? below). Such obsessions easily turn into anger when his advances are rejected. One day he shows up in a fringe area, drunk and attacks.

9) Extreme mood swings - Beware someone who can go from wildly happy to deeply wounded at a moment's notice. This sort of personality can feel justified to commit an unlimited amount of violence and damage, because you "hurt his feelings." This is a common pattern among those with chronic anger about life.

10) Physical tantrums - How does this person get angry? Especially when denied "getting his way". Beware of a person who regularly physically assaults his environment i.e. hitting walls, kicking things etc. It is only a short step from striking a car to attacking you.

11) Jock or gorilla mentality - This mentality promotes both acceptance and encouragement for the use of violence. It is especially common among participants of contact sports. What is most insidious about this mentality is the "jock" receives, not only positive reinforcement, but out-and-out applause for being aggressive and violent. This can easily lead to a failure to differentiate between the playing field and real life. Mike Tyson?s comment is a prime example: "Nobody ever objected before."

12) A mean drunk - Nearly all rape and abuse cases involve alcohol. Watch what surfaces when someone is intoxicated. It shows what is always lurking underneath. Do not put yourself into a situation where you would deal with such a person while he is intoxicated. Most importantly, don't allow your facilities to be diminished by alcohol or drugs in this person's presence.

13) Alcohol or drug abuse - To begin with drug and alcohol addiction can in be traced back to selfishness and a refusal to change one?s world view. Alcohol and drugs are not the cause of bad behavior, rather they are used as an excuse! Often the attacker intentionally became intoxicated to ignore the social restrictions and inhibitions regarding violence.

I thought that was quite useful - and I'd be interested in your views on that?

garlicnutter · 29/08/2011 14:15

Yes, Pan, I see the distinction. Can't say I know a whole lot about the secret life of a man's mind, so don't know whether he was wrong to work the logic that way round. Do you have fantasies about raping?

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AliceWyrld · 29/08/2011 14:16

Yes rapists fantasising about rape first, totally get. All men who fantasise about rape going on to commit the act is not information anyone has access to. Hence why it is problematic, and scaremongering, and not appropriate for a man in a position of trust to tell a group of women.

garlicnutter · 29/08/2011 14:18

Ha, OMC, I was going to post something like that!
Yes, I agree. It's a good list imo.
Those are all red flags of abuse, you know? Basically a rapist is a selfish, angry woman-hater ... a woman-abuser.

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OneMoreChap · 29/08/2011 14:19

FamilyCircus

Which locations, and most importantly, risky behaviours are you referring to?

Examples that occur are where the victim easily becomes a target of opportunity: car parks, canal tow paths, darkened parks, staircases in common access estates

Risky behaviours: associating with the sort of people that routinely denigrate women, young male gangs with a habit of casual violence

Pan · 29/08/2011 14:21

gn - with respect.......

Pan · 29/08/2011 14:22

whoops, forgot the Biscuit

OneMoreChap · 29/08/2011 14:30

ta, garlicnutter
I'll provide the cite: www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/rape.html
Marc suggests that while there is no moralising, no defence for the rapist, there is a degree of personal responsibility not blame.

The list of people to avoid I quoted came from there.
It isn't a woman's fault if she is raped. The blame is always, unequivocally with the rapist.

But please, avoid folk like that. I'd rather be somewhat unpopular for saying avoid bad people - gut instinct, if you wish - rather than saying there's nothing you can do to diminish the chance of being raped.

To remind people.
"Whatever I wear, wherever I go; yes means yes, NO MEANS NO!"
Men recognise that; rapists don't.

LRDTheFeministDragon · 29/08/2011 14:33

I am a bad person and I am going to pedant hell.

It's a site if it's a website. It's a citation if it's a reference to something. Cite is a verb.

garlicnutter · 29/08/2011 14:33

canal tow paths

Garlic's True Stories pt.1

I am twelve. I'm walking to school, which involves a 'cut' between two industrial plots leading to some waste ground. A small group of workmen start calling at me about my hair, and some sleazy remarks about my school uniform. I walk faster - my satchel starts banging against my side, which they find very funny. They catch me up and keep on with the jeers. One of them says something like "You're old enough to know" and this frightens me. I don't know, but am clear he means something I wouldn't want to know.

I yell. The others back off, telling the shouty chap I'm sacred, he should leave me alone. He pushes me up against the fence - I can see a workshop through the cracks; the wood smells of creosote. Another man crowds in. They make remarks about school knickers (which I am wearing) and hike up my skirt. By now I'm crying and have some idea of what's next. He puts his hand over my mouth - and apologises for pulling my hair Hmm

Another chap caught them up, saw what was going on and was horrified. He gave them all a massive bollocking, asked me if I was all right and we went our separate ways. I felt ashamed :(

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garlicnutter · 29/08/2011 14:35

I was kind of expecting that, Pan Blush
But how to I know whether my dad was right, if I don't get any insight into whether normal men also have such fantasies??

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OneMoreChap · 29/08/2011 14:36

Cite: as in cite or withdraw

You're correct, by the way, I meant citation rather than site.

LRDTheFeministDragon · 29/08/2011 14:39

garlic, that's awful. Sad

It's lucky you were somewhere where another person could intervene.

OMC - that made me Grin, but I was being patronizing myself so haven't a leg to stand on!

garlicnutter · 29/08/2011 14:39

Story #1 suggests, to me, that the idiot in question had managed to justify his assault on a child, by calling on his fantasies about sexy blonde schoolgirls in gym knickers Angry

Not to say everybody who's been to School Dinners is a child rapist, just illustrating the absurd stretches of logic that can lead to an "asking for it" mentality.

I may not be putting this very clearly, writing that discombobulated me more than I expected.

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LRDTheFeministDragon · 29/08/2011 14:41

I think the reason the 'asking for it' crowd end up using absurd stretches of logic is because it is absurd, full stop.

alexpolismum · 29/08/2011 14:42

garlic - that's terrible. I probably wouldn't have 'known' at 12 years old either [very sheltered and naive]

One More chap "NO MEANS NO!"
Men recognise that; rapists don't."

I disagree with what you say here. I think a lot of rapists DO recognise that no means no; part of the reason why they rape is because it puts them in control, despite what the woman wants, and what would be the point in that if they knew it was consensual. Rapists recognise that no means no and choose to ignore it.

LRDTheFeministDragon · 29/08/2011 14:44

I wouldn't have known at 12 either. 12 is a child FFS. Sad

I think that's a very true point alex.

RoyalWelsh · 29/08/2011 14:46

I haven't read through all the posts (am at work) but will do so later. I just wanted to add my thoughts to this -

I don't think that what you wear necessarily has an effect on whether you will be raped or not, but I do think it has an effect on how successful a conviction might be should it go to a jury based trial. I'm not saying this through any sort of knowledge, but just through what I have read and whta my gut reaction tells me, which is that if a woman dressed 'demurely' is raped and a woman who is dressed perhaps in a short skirt and low cut top with high heels, the less covered up woman may well find that the jury doesn't vote in her favour.

But surely it's the same in terms of location as well. For example, if a woman is walking home from work carrying her supermarket shopping, people are more likely to believe she has been raped than a woman who is drinking alcohol in a club. I'm not saying that that is what I believe, but what it seems to me that society holds to be true.

I'm not sure if any of that makes sense, I'm certainly not looking to be shouted at, but these are just my musings on a subject that I am interested in.

Pan · 29/08/2011 14:46

oh forget it garlic. it was just immediatley insulting. but you won't know what you want to know just by asking me, or any 'normal' man.

yes alex - "no!" can just mean a bigger challenge and a bit more violence to be carried out.

OneMoreChap · 29/08/2011 14:47

alexpolismum
Very fair point.

No works with men not rapists? Is that better?

Incidentally, I'm sure it goes without saying, most men are not rapists, so women always should say NO without assuming it's going to be ignored.