She was asking for it.

[garlicnutter]

Sorry to post and run (am knackered) but it looks like a good time for this one to be taken out for some fresh air.

What you wear and how much you drink has little to no effect on whether you'll get raped.

Elaborate, please ...

Yes that is a good point and one which I hadn't clearly articulated in my own mind GN:

Rape is not an opportunistic crime, like mugging.

A mugger only turns into a rapist, if he has the mentality to rape a woman in the first place. He doesn't become a rapist because of anything she had done.

A normal man who finds himself alone with a woman who is a bit drunk or has flirted with him throughout the evening and come on to him, who then changes her mind and tells him she's tired and is going to go to bed alone after all, will not suddenly turn into a rapist and rape her, because she has given him "come on" signals all night.

He will only rape her, if he has that sense of entitlement that he has the right to penetrate her body whether she wants him to or not, because of her previous behaviour towards him. That sense of entitlement to sexual access with or without consent, has to be there in the first place. Most men don't have that sense of entitlement (I hope), so therefore it's perfectly safe to behave in any way at all, without getting raped. People who think it's unsafe for women to behave like that, think all men are rapists. They're not. Only some men are rapists and they are the ones it is not safe to behave any way around. Not because they are more likely to rape you because of your behaviour, but because they are more likely to get away with raping you because other people will excuse the fact that they are rapists on the basis that you made them rape you by your behaviour. It is the phenomenon of women being blamed for men's behaviour.

"What you wear and how much you drink has little to no effect on whether you'll get raped."

I disagree.

Rape is a crime of violence, not of sex. So I agree that dressing "sexily" has no impact on whether you get raped.

But as with all crimes of violence the perpetrators are going to go for the easiest victim they can find. If you look like you are unable to run away (because you are falling-down drunk or wearing very high heels or wearing a skirt that won't let you take long strides) you are more likely to be targeted, for rape or for mugging.

I'm saying there's a difference between claiming that women are "asking for it" and advising sensible safety measures that apply to men and women equally. Rape is about violence and opportunity, not about sex.

You would tell your sons not to walk through the bad areas of town by themselves in case they get mugged for their mobile phone, wouldn't you?

And yes I'm talking about stranger rape obviously, and I am fully aware that most rape is not of this kind.

It seems a shame that what boils down to basic self-defense tips gets confused with victim-blaming.

The point is that your sons are more likely to get their mobiles stolen on the way home from school in the afternoon. Women are more likely to be raped in their own homes than in a 'bad area of town'. The fear is disproportionate to the risk.

That is the point Puffin - most rapes aren't "stranger rapes."

I take the point Trillian that say wearing high heels or are drunk means you could have more problems running away from a potential (stranger) rapist. But, what worries me is that "logic" could stretch to restrictions on women who may also have limits to their capacity to fend off an attacker - say a disabled woman. Would the advice then for disabled women not to go out alone because they are more at risk of rape than a non-disabled woman?

I also don't think there is any credible evidence to show that a rapist will go for the "easiest victim he can find," or at least evidence that they take skirt length or heel height into consideration when choosing who to rape.

Really strong post above, HBX.

People who think it's unsafe for women to behave like that, think all men are rapists. They're not. Only some men are rapists and they are the ones it is not safe to behave any way around.

If you believe the myths, then you imply that all men are potential rapists.
You assume that most men would rape, if they think they can get away with it.
This is patently untrue. Most of us have got totally rat-arsed, while wearing our glad rags, then been treated safely by all the men we encountered while out and the taxi driver home.
This is what normally happens when women go out and get drunk.
Therefore, the vast majority of men are not potential rapists looking for an opportunity.
The only men who rape are rapists. To them, every woman is an opportunity.

CRIKRI I take your point but in my head the advice is for every individual to make things as safe as they can be for themselves. I am crap at running (in heels or no), does that mean I should worry more about safety than someone who is a sprinter? No, I should strike a balance for myself between the safest way to live and the way I want to live.

Presumably the safest thing to do in terms of being attacked is to live on your own and sign for deliveries through a special hatch in the door, but few people choose that route. :)

I like what you said there, Puffin, The fear is disproportionate to the risk.

I can't help thinking that we exaggerate the fear in order to maintain our illusion of control. The fact is that you're more likely to be raped by a friend or a cousin, in familiar surroundings. Little can be done about this. It's frightening.

If your friend rapes you, he will immediately blame you for his crime. He'll say you've been giving him the come-on, wore seductive outfits, talked about sex, or anything really that sounds like you were "asking for it". In his mind - he's a warped individual, after all - it may even be true.

The problem with the myth is that too many people want to believe it. The police, the prosecutor if you get that far, the media and your friends will all be searching for an answer to "But why did he pick you? Why then?"
They don't want to accept that some men just are this warped, so would rather blame you for his assault on you.

We need the police, at least, to grasp the reality that every rapist is a criminal with peculiar thoughts.

Yes, and I think the way normal men behave proves what rubbish a rape myths are. I know lots of nice men, who if they saw a woman pissed off her head, in high heels, staggering down an alley, would not think of rape. Rape is about demonstrating your power over someone else. It is a nasty, violent, unnatural reaction to have to someone who is already staggering about.

Garlic, I think you are onto something there. I've always worried that by promoting self-defence classes and issuing advice on "avoiding rape," is a bit like the Maginot Line. It encourages people to put all their energy and thoughts into steps to avoid one form of sexual assault (from a random stranger) but leaves them vulnerable to the more common type of assault from someone known to them. It can lull women (and men) into a false sense of security.

I think also, we genuinely don't want to believe that rape can happen to us. If we hear about someone being raped, perhaps unconsciously, we try to tot up all the reasons why we are different from the victim, why the situation is totally different from any we would find ourselves in or even that it wasn't actually a real rape. (e.g. I would never dress like that/be in that area alone at night/get that drunk/agree to meet a violent ex on my own, lead a man on, etc.) In order to make ourselves feel less vulnerable and more "okay" we buy into rape myths and ultimately, victim blaming.

I wouldn't call it a reaction - a reaction suggests that it's something brought on be seeing someone doing whatever, which then leads into the "doing X encourages rape" problem.

Am I right in thinking that the increase in sexual harrassment/violence in the vicinity of lap dance clubs was a reason for recategorising them?
And - controversially - all men are potential rapists. It's each man's decision whether he attempts rape. He knows if he wants to rape. But we don't. Rapists don't have a big R on their forehead; so how do we know if any specific man is or isn't a wannabe rapist? From our pov, it's sensible to assume that any man could be a rapist.

If all men are potential rapists then all people are potential attackers - it's just that rape is defined as being done with a penis, which women don't have. You could be beaten up/knifed/assaulted by anyone.

The facts are simple: if a man has sex with a woman against her will, he is a rapist. It's no different from a mugger being at fault for mugging somebody.

If a person goes out with a thousand pounds in their pocket and walks down a street where there are muggers, we do not blame the person who has been mugged for the mugging, do we? We think their actions were careless but we don't blame them for the actual mugging.
Likewise, just because a woman walks down a street wearing skimpy clothing and gets raped, we really should not blame the woman for it, yet her clothing gets called into question. It's ridiculous. The fault is always with the rapist.
Nobody says to a mugged person, 'Well it's your fault for having so much money on you'. This would deemed to be irrelevant when it comes to the actual crime and so should what a woman is wearing or how drunk she is be irrelevant, too.

The courts should only focus upon whether or not the sex was consensual.

I agree Wamster.

One other difference: If you were to say to someone "if I were you I would put that money in a bag rather than have it hanging out of your back pocket" you wouldn't be called a "mugger apologist".

After a crime you shouldn't blame the victim. It is always the perpetrator's fault.

Before a crime you should be allowed to give advice on how to avoid becoming a victim.

"Don't leave drinks unattended" is not saying that it is then your own fault if your drink is spiked, it is just saying that if there is an easy way to make it less likely to happen you should do it.

Alice! Better get Trillian round to install a double-locked delivery hatch for you

As she says, all men have the potential to rape (a penis) but not all men are potential rapists because they don't think like a rapist. All people have the potential to murder, but we're not all murderers.

... which leads to something I'm not very confident about mentioning. Most of us may fantasise about committing murder sometimes. We wouldn't do it, ever. We know the difference between feeling a violent urge and acting on it. I've fantasised about 'raping' a man sometimes, even though it's almost impossible in practice! Thinking and doing are two different things.

But ... The policeman who taught me self-defence (his advice has proved very good, so I reckon he's a good source) said that men who fantasise about rape always go on to do it for real. Now, I don't know what level of fantasy he was talking about. I assume he meant seriously detailed, planned fantasies, rather than a passing "I'd like to do her."

This worries me greatly. Porn is so much more rape-like these days, is it going to incite more men to harbour and then enact these fantasies? I don't know, and it's a bit off-topic. I don't like the thought, though.

Yes Trillian, all people are potential attackers, but more usually men. This is inescapable logic. My point is that there is unjustified reluctance to say all men are potential rapists. That's not the same as all men are actual rapists. What about the lap dancing club question?

This is from the Fawcett Society:

Myth: Rape does not happen very often.
Fact:
At least 47,000 women are raped every year in the UK. This is as many women as live in Maidstone, Basingstoke or Bath.

Myth: If I got raped, there would be a rape crisis centre to support me.
Fact:
Three out of every four local authority areas have no services for victims of rape, and up to half of the remaining rape crisis centres face closure because of severe funding problems. This means that the vast majority of women who are raped do not have a rape crisis centre in their area.

Myth: Rape is impossible to prove, because it?s a case of one person?s word against another?s.
Fact:
There is supporting evidence in 86.7% of charged cases of rape. This could include forensic evidence, previous convictions or witnesses to events surrounding the rape. More could be done to gather effective evidence in rape cases.

Myth: Men rape women because it?s impossible for them to control their sexual urges.
Fact:
Men are as capable of controlling their sexual impulses as women. Fundamentally, rape is not an expression of desire or sexual attraction, but of power and violence.

Myth: Most rapes are committed by strangers.
Fact:
The majority of rapists are known to the victim. In 66% of recorded cases, the suspect was known by the victim.

Myth: If a woman is drunk, wears revealing clothing or flirts with a man, she is partly to blame for being raped.
Fact:
Someone?s dress or behaviour, or the fact that they are incapacitated through drinking alcohol, does not make it ok to assault them. Rapists look for victims they perceive as vulnerable, not women who dress in a particular way.

Myth: Women often send out mixed signals. Rape is just a misunderstanding.
Fact:
By definition, in cases of rape the perpetrator could not have reasonably believed that the victim consented to sex. These are instances of sexual violence, not innocent misunderstandings.

Myth: Most women who accuse men of rape are lying.
Fact:
The rate of false allegations for rape is no higher than for other crimes. Only 3% of rape accusations are ?probably or possibly false? according to police categorisation - no more than for any other crime.

I don't know TrillianAstra, it seems to me that the only way a woman can guarantee not being raped is not to have contact with men at all. But, yes, if a man is a known rapist, then obviously good advice would be to avoid him. But if that advice is not taken for whatever reason, then the blame is still with the perpetrator not the victim.

My main point is this: to have sex with somebody against their will is rape and inexcusable regardless of the circumstances.

From their pov, they're not all potential rapists, but from our pov they are, because we can't read their minds. That doesn't mean they're all actual rapists

I didn't know that about the strip clubs, alice, but am not surprised.

If men who think like rapists (whether they have already raped or not) spend an evening being treated to live displays - by women - of women as sexual objects, then it could reinforce their self-justification for rape. Lap-dancing is a case all by itself, because the female 'object' seeks close physical proximity and appears to invite sex. He can even come in his pants. To a normal man, it's a show. But to the rape-thinking man, it could be 'proof' that all women want it kind of thing.

Am struggling to put myself in the mind of a rapist at a strip club

two points - it's fairly wild to say men who fantasise about rape "always" commit the act. For men who do rape, it's often a preparation step for men to imagine themselves doing the act, yes, but it obv. depends, as you say on what we mean by 'fantasise. Hating women and raping them are not direct processes in every case.

I'd like to see the laptop club-and-sexual assualt stats. and how they are collected.