You don't have to be feminist to post here, but it helps...

[MrsReasonable]

I've noticed that whenever a 'non-feminist' view is brought up, there are occasionally some posts along the lines of 'this is a feminist board, why come here if you aren't...', etc.

Genuine question - is this a feminist board, or a board about feminism? Obviously the majority of posters are feminist, but I'm not sure whether that is because feminists (surprise surprise) like discussing feminism, or because it is seen as a feminist 'safe haven'?

I'm trying to remember when and why I got sucked in actually .. no memory!

Someone posted earlier about rad fem seeing other feminist views as watered down and tickling the edges. I see how this affects this board. It must be frustrating if you're rad fem, but it doesn't mean other feminists are wrong.

People self-identifying as feminist are frequently called rape apologists, MRAs, colluders with the patriarchy and so on on here. There are still people who seem to not see the problem and assume that people are angry at feminism rather than at the way some posters attack.

I see it a bit like a Tory messageboard which has some extreme right-wingers who post and if you don't agree with their extreme views, it's because you're a pansy and not a proper patriot.

People don't always want to be educated, or to learn, or anything other than participate in a discussion on here. It's not an invitation for conversion to the rad fem cause.

"The small cock shake down" could be your first single. You could even have a dance to go with it.

Stripey....have you got a problem with gay people?
can you please not call people pansy...its a derogatry term for gay man.

sparky

Sorry sparky. I have nothing against gay people and I wouldn't use the term to someone - I was using it as an analogy - the way posters on this board are treated by the rad fems reminds me of macho type men attacking people who have similar, but less extreme, political views. So a far-right poster would call a Tory a pansy for not having as extreme views, on here, perfectly valid points are called rape apologies or suchlike.

FWIW, I don't think feminism other than radical feminism is watered down necessarily - often it seems to be that people don't like women being treated badly, but don't see it as a single-root problem - so they'll maybe identify with, say, the idea that it's bad that women are financially penalized for having children, but might see that as part of a wider problem with capitalism. That makes sense. Or you get people (SGB) springs to mind, who aren't a 'watered down' version of anything, but who don't have the same attitude to porn that radical feminists usually do.

I do think that, for me anyway, discussions are meant to be about education. We don't all have to agree, but unless we are chatting or joking (both good but probably not what you're thinking of mostly), we probably are going to be trying to convince each other and work out what's important - that is education. I don't get what you're saying if you say you don't want to be educated because to me that's what discussion is? If you mean you don't want people to expect you to agree with them because they have told you something, I am 100% behind that.

I think the problem is, someone said a while back that it'd be better if radical feminists would just compromise a bit, because she reckoned that if there are two people arguing intelligently, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. And I think a fair few people feel like that, even if quite deep down. I certainly feel like that a lot on AIBU - you can usually say 'look, calm down, it's six of one and half a doen of the other'. But when you're talking ideology, that won't happen. People will just flat-out disagree at times. And it's pointless to say 'well, that poster will feel better if I accept she might be right', because then you'd be lying. All you can really do IMO is accept they have their opinion and you have yours.

There's also a problem that sometimes - and I don't mean this as a personal comment stripey so don't worry - people can say things that are offensive without realizing it (eg., I have seen people post things about whether or not a woman who's been raped in such-and-such a situation should have done things differently, without realizing they were talking to a person who had been raped). This isn't necessarily anyone's fault. But often, if you see similar topics in Relationships, people will be more aware that they might be making comments that have a real-life relevance, whereas here people are inclined to forget that.

And then there are the minor-but-grating things like constantly having to point out that 'radical' and 'extreme' don't mean the same, or having to say 'the patriarchy' doesn't mean 'men', it means 'the structure in society that discriminates against women'. I don't think you have to be radical to get fed up, because you feel as if people could google these things instead of asking ... it's just like when on AIBU someone will be having a bad day and will snap 'it's been done FFS' when there's a post on P&C or BF/FF. No, it's not great when people snap, but it's not unique to feminism and it's obviously not a real problem or no-one would ever post in AIBU.

I really like MN and I like chatting to people - I doubt I turn into a monster when I step from AIBU/Chat onto here ... give us a chance?

thanks for the appology.
well it is a offensive term that i have heard used against my own sons.

sparky

Sorry, cross-post. I wasn't commenting on the use of 'pansy' when I said people were sometimes offensive without realizing.

I don't think it's ok to use offensive terminology even if you are imagining what an offensive person would say, but possible to do it by mistake I suppose. I wouldn't justify it by saying it was an analogy though, I don't follow the logic there.

Probably not an analogy, grammatically speaking, but an illustration. I thought it was valid in context. I've seen others use racist terms here, for example, to illustrate a strongly prejudiced insult.

Not trying to put you down, Sparky, she used it to show how people use offensive terms against people who think others' views aren't strong enough.

(Words in your mouth, Stripey, apols.)

Thanks garlic, I think my brain is just going slow as it's late. I just didn't follow.

Nah, it's your linguisticpedantry perfectionism, LRD

Actually my explanation has got a clause too many in it.
Time for bed
^^ shows age.

It should be said, dittany, but perhaps it has been over looked because (in this section at least) it is self evident that calling someone a man-hater, crazy p, insane or have 'issues' is unacceptable.

I also don't think anyone on here (well accept the trolls etc themselves) have any real problems for the obvious trolls and misogynists to be called what they are (and let's be honest, it becomes pretty clear, pretty soon who they are) but the objection is against using these terms to describe honest posters who are not trolling or who do not realise they hold misogynist views and need educating.

I know that you believe in calling a spade a spade, and fair enough, but when someone does self identify as a feminist and does not realise the extent of the social programming they are labouring under it can come as a massive shock and be quite hurtful when another feminist (and perhaps one they deeply respect) calls them misogynist or a MRA. And I know that sometimes it is a case of calling the opinion misogynist not the person but it is so easy to mistake these things when these highly emotive terms are used.

Perhaps the answer isn't changing anything (as one shouldn't have to back down to protect feelings when opinions are contarary to one's own) but acknowledging the shock and hurt some (genuine) posters may feel when they are faced with the truth. A bit like a woman who hadn't realised she had been raped and had been blaming herself. It can be quite a difficult and complex process to come to terms with the truth.

I don't see any problem with acknowledging that pointing out that someone unconsciously holds misogynist views, can be very hurtful and a big shock for that person. In fact, I think people do do that, don't they? People are extraordinarily gentle about pointing it out - at first.

But let us be honest about this, that isn't what people who hate the feminists in the section want is it? They want us to STFU and ignore the fact that people are expressing misogynist views. They hate the fact that we're examining so carefully and analysing - it's disturbing for people, they don't want to go there. They don't want us to acknowledge how difficult it is for people to hear this (something we do, in the main, most of the time), they want us to stop pointing it out altogether.

No one gets called a called rape apologist, MRA, colluders with the patriarchy etc, unless they have consistently expressed views that are aligned with those descriptions.

I still haven't seen a link to the posts where feminists supposedly sneer at other women for wearing lipstick, removing hair etc., on the other thread - because there are no links, because that doesn't happen here and if it did, other posters would pretty much slap someone down. But the poster concerned, feels no inhibition about coming on to this section, telling a lie like that and then swanning off ignoring people's requests to back up that lie with some proof. And then not apologise for that lie either. And then she'lll probably talk on other boards, about how scared she is of the feminists. Happens all the time, none of the people who complain about regulars here notice or acknowledge it, but they're happy to come on and endlessly complain about how horrible we are, insult us personally and then say how scared they are of us. You can't be that scared guys, otherwise you wouldn't be so free with your insults - you're not coming across as quaking in your boots, funnily enough.

hmmmm...im not sure id agree with that Lenin.
if it is directed at a post[insane]...well the post is someones views/oppinions surely then this then would be directed at the poster?

sparky