You don't have to be feminist to post here, but it helps...

[MrsReasonable]

I've noticed that whenever a 'non-feminist' view is brought up, there are occasionally some posts along the lines of 'this is a feminist board, why come here if you aren't...', etc.

Genuine question - is this a feminist board, or a board about feminism? Obviously the majority of posters are feminist, but I'm not sure whether that is because feminists (surprise surprise) like discussing feminism, or because it is seen as a feminist 'safe haven'?

Garlic[tue..oo.18]
thankyou garlic...i did go to bed wondering what anology meant
i dont want to bring up stripeys post again...as far as im concerned..i was offended/she said sorry....sorted.
other than that..yep its a difficult one isnt it[anology]..ive done it myself
ive mentioned words that others have called me..mind you i have asked for my post to be deleted afterwards.i dunno about this one really..im stuck.
on one hand..[say]like in rl id say "ah that person just called me[insert name]"...but if i said this on the net...someone might get offended as that patticalar word might be upsetting for them.
actually..im not explaining too good..right..in rl someone might shout out"fuckin dyke"..and ill shout back"cor youre fuckin observant aint ya"....finished.
but if someone said on the net.."oh that woman looked like a dyke to me"..id think "hang on..that is offensive"!
i think maybe its because words[on a screen]hang around longer and many people can see it..and it feels like it becomes "alright" can you see what im saying?
hmmm..i dont know about this anology stuff.
obviously its not ok for someone to be shouting out things in the street either.
sorry-this is rather longwinded isnt it...trying to explain.

sparky

As usual, I agree with what has been said by AyeRobot, HerBe, startAfire, dittany, etc.

I don't post a lot here but I do read a lot and I see the same thing happening over and over again. Often posters do come to this section in quite an adversarial manner - they question the need for feminism, tell us we are doing it wrong, taking it too seriously, tell us we are mad, tell us the section serves to men bash. And we are expected to a) Indulge these posters b) Water down our views c) Be graceful and saintly about said behaviour otherwise we will 'put people off feminism'.

For some reason the regular posters on the feminist board are held to a standard of behaviour that the rest of MN is not (including those who demand this standard).

Fact is, feminism makes people uncomfortable because it rocks the status quo boat, rejects mainstream thinking and causes women to face up to some pretty unpleasant realities. I think feminists are often attacked in a 'shoot the messenger' sort of way.

Just look for example at the PIV thread. Sakura brought a really interesting perspective to that thread and yet many posters tried to shut her down because they, themselves, could not comprehend where she was coming form as the thinking behind her posts was just too far out the patriarchal box for them. Surely we should be protective of a small space on the internet where non-mainstream ideas can be explored? We don't have to agree with all of those ideas or start living our lives by them but we equally shouldn't be threatened and rendered aggressive by the mere discussion of them.

In addition there is the issue of what level of blaming you are on. People who read the I Blame The Patriarchy blog will be familiar with this concept. This blog clearly states that is is for radical feminists who are quite advanced in their feminist analysis - it is stated in the comments policy that men are not really welcome and that fools are not suffered gladly. Mumsnet is not a blog, of course, it is an open forum and there are no rules about who may post or if they are required to hold feminist views or not - and that, of course, is exactly as it should be. Both sorts of spaces have their value.

However, I do think the less advanced blamers on here should sometimes be a little less attacking of more advanced blaming and I think the more advanced blamers should be careful not to dismiss newer posters who are starting off on their feminist journey.

To answer the OP - this board was set up in the spirit of being a place where people could discuss feminism and discuss issues from a feminist perspective. A feminist perspective is one where it is taken as read that society is male dominated and that women are oppressed by said society. As a general rule of thumb, feminists want the end of female oppression.

A feminist perspective is not 'any perspective at all as long as it is held by a woman'.

Another thing - I don't post that often but I do tend to go a bit when I do!

It isn't easy to take off the patriarchy blinkers. It isn't easy to grasp how far reaching and all encompassing the consequences are of belong to a privileged group or a nonprivileged group. Society does not, on the whole, encourage this sort of thinking and indeed there are active structures and mechanisms put in place to discourage non-mainstream thinking.

Then when one does step away a little from mainstream thinking it is often a deeply upsetting and profoundly unsettling experience. Feminism doesn't come without a bit of personal cost if you like.

I don't like it when I see women in conflict over feminism. Although I generally think this conflict is rooted in the difficulty of overthrowing patriarchal thinking, rather than the 'fault' of feminism or feminists.

I agree with that Beachcomber. I think it's a hugely unsettling thing, particularly if you have vaguely considered yourself to be a 'feminist' for some time but not really done much active thinking about it. It's challenging the whole foundations of our society.

I dunno Lenin.

If you examine what happens on the MN feminist section from a political POV and forget any personal stuff (be it conflicts or opinions held by individuals) it does often have an element of the classic handmaiden who has internalized patriarchial values doing patriarchy's work for it.

When members of an oppressed group want to stop the oppressed group from discussing everyone's oppression you know you have a pretty solid structure in place.

Yep I agree Beachcomber. Challenging the situation you are in, in issues that are often very personal, is going to be a head fuck and scary. Unless you don't ever really challenge it in the first place.

I have learnt a lot here about how it is OK to discuss these issues in a non-wishy washy, pussy footing around way. And the power of doing that. And that is rare. If the tone was aren't we all great, we can choose what we like and be all empowered, and lets never mention the elephant in the room I wouldn't be here. And I don't see how that can happen without conflict. If feminism isn't challenging anything, you're doing it wrong.

I don't think it does. I think a bunch of feminists who never had a challenging discussion, would be dull as anything. And it would be closed as it would become a little group discussing not very much. All just posting an advert and saying 'yeh sexism'. I see that soooo much. And that is closed as there's not much to engage with.

Something which confronts the 'norm' provides something to come back to, something of substance that people may well think wtf, but can't help peeking back again to see that the 'crazies' are discussing this time. And then there is something that people can't help thinking about rather that just thinking 'meh, sexism'. Why do people feel the need to so vehemently disagree? - cos they were challenged.

And I can't see how that can be done without conflict because that's what happens when underpinning structures are challenged.

But people don't dismiss us, they spend ages coming to tell us what we're doing wrong.

Yes, Chrisitne, that is what I'm trying to say.

I do often see posters take the hump here and state that they considered themselves a feminist until they encountered this section/want to distance themselves from feminism if this section is what it is.

I think this sort of thinking is in part due to the backlash that feminism is experiencing. Society has encouraged women to think that all one has to do to be a feminist is be a woman and agree that men and women should be equal. Well, of course most people agree with that on paper. The difficulty comes when you actually start to analyse what that actually means and how far away we are from equality.

Indeed I don't really think it is terribly helpful to discuss feminism as being about equality. I think it is much more realistic to talk about female oppression and male dominance/supremacy.

I think we are encouraged to view feminism as being about equality because only the very bigoted take issue with human beings being equal - and thus feminism is watered down and made much less threatening. It takes a lot more political analysis and taking apart of mainstream ideas however to view women's rights as an issue of oppression.

feminist board does have a you cant say that on here vibe with tendency for some to pile in to maintain their topic content.it can be v toe the line. shape up or ship out.i had to laugh, i was contributing the other while and someone rocked up and said oh ignore her,its just sm. the irony was lost on them.all rise up and free yourself of hegemony,challenge ascribed orthodoxies and norms hey but dont say that on here

naturally,i participate as i wish,when i wish.and no i dont need to faff about finding links and mn of yore to support a post i have made. you see the habitual prove it and links please is passive aggressive derailing too and trying to divert someone to trot off and search the archives

Exactly Alice - feminism is a headfuck.

Perhaps that is the header we need for this section .

Just wanted to apologise again for using an offence word in my illustration/analogy, I'll think again before doing that.

I think when people are obviously coming on to the board to troll or to insult feminism then that's one issue which I'm sure everyone can agree on how to handle - quickly respond and move on with the discussion.

The reason for the whole furore is that it's posters who want to engage with the feminist section, people like me who see threads in active convos which I'd like to join, and when I join in, I'm told I'm doing feminism all wrong. It's insulting and it does ime cater best for rad fems and not so friendly to other flavours of fems. It's a very all or nothing approach, which doesn't sit well with the majority (IMO) of MNers who would love to join in the debate.

Would a solution be to have separate topics for Radical Feminism and others within the Feminism bracket?

Someone asked for an example of someone being hounded off the board despite engaging - I see this all the time as a lurker, and on the PIV thread Wamster was properly hounded off despite repeatedly trying to engage. I recall 'don't let the door slam you on the arse on the way out' and so on.

Sorry to be dumb, but what does MRA stand for? Have googled with no joy

Men's Rights Activists

mens rights activists

How about asking MNHQ to add MRA to the list of acronyms, so that you don't keep getting asked the same question over and over?

SM when someone says something like 'the feminists here sneer at women who wear make-up' I think it is fair enough to request the poster to back that accusation up with a quote.

Otherwise one could be forgiven for thinking that such comments are just projection and lies. Unfortunately it happens a lot. We had one long thread a while back where people gave all sorts of examples of the abominable treatment that has suffered at the hands of the MN feminists. A couple of threads were linked to and the consensus was that the poster had misunderstood/misinterpreted/misrepresented/exaggerated/outright lied/had some weird poster who is not a regular be rude to them and have the regulars say 'oi that is out of order' - delete as applicable.

Odd behaviour which I don't really understand and can't be arsed to engage with.

Is rad fem the only accepted view on here, really? The majority of regular posters seem to identify themselves as rad fem or be closely aligned with radical views.

That's IMO why people who self-identify as feminists find this section unwelcoming.

If your opinions aren't radical enough, you're not welcome? Someone upthread broke down different types of feminism, but now people are posting defining the ethos of the section as distinctly radical. Fine, but rename the section to avoid confusion and people stumbling in thinking their views are welcome.

There are a lot of regular posters here who would not identify themselves primarily as radical feminists, so any relabelling would be inaccurate.
It is a feminist board.

no,its discursive riposte. do challenge and dispute pov.but needlessly demanding links,citations,and a letter from justine is bitty ott