Is this a compromise too far? I'd like a feminist viewpoint on this.

[UndercoverFeminist]

OK, I've set up a new account for this, so if you work out who I am, please don't give my regular name.

dh & I have been having major troubles - not many big arguments, but we are now pretty much at an impasse. we are still good friends & get a lot of emotional support from each other, but there is no 'wow' factor, or wish for one, or anything on either side.

we would also like more freedom/flexibility than a traditional marriage allows for.

however, if we split up & live separately, as well as all the emotional fall out (and bot our families will see this as a worse-than-death scenario, and never get over it), there are a huge number of practical difficulties.

basically, we would go from being financially comfortable, happily co-parenting, able to help out etc etc, to having barely enough money to support two houses, no family support & single parents, no companionship etc.

the house we live in is big enough that we have separate rooms, and dh works from home in an office, we kind of live amicable, but fairly separate lives, with dd happy.

HOWEVER - dh just assumes I will do most/all 'wifework'. It has been one of our big issues & one I don't see being resolved. IF we split up, he would have to pay spousal and child support. So if we acknowledge that we are 'over' but continue to co-exist in the same house, I would benefit from his higher salary, and having a back-up parent on hand, but be stuck with being a 'housewife', plus having work.

but then I would be in that position anyway if we split up, and with significantly less money & support.

we live thousands of miles from family, so we could be fairly open about our situation here, without the trauma of telling parents that we're getting divorced.

I have to log off for a while, but would love to know how you lot think this could work out. am i being a complete idiot to think about a 'house share' rather than separating completely?

[singforsupper]

Hi, feminist,

I have read your thread through and pick up a few things. One is that you hardly mention the impact this has on your daughter or how it would be for her. I say this because I think you are perhaps not seeing this in perspective, and you are downplaying the effects that your current situation has on her.

The other thing is that I sense you fear losing control, not in a control-freaky way, but general fear of the unknown. So it is better to make this situation continue and justify it and minimise the changes because you don't know what would happen if you split. I read through this wondering why you couldn't just split - downsize - allow him to keep your household as is his duty (to a certain extent). I think you won't do the obvious because you are afraid.

It strikes me that you feel quite vulnerable. You have been brought to this country for your husband's benefit and have few friends or family - this isolation is not healthy at all, but it obviously suits your husband. There are many ways you can live a happy healthy life without your partner, but I don't think there is a way to do this with him.

Perhaps if you can let yourself mentally let go of him it would help. Your future will not be yours until you are free to make it for yourself. Living along will not only give you space, but it will make a space for a man that will make you feel like you are 'home'. And your daughter, of course would benefit most of all from seeing you living your life in the way that you know is right for you.

Being happy is not a feminist issue x

[UndercoverFeminist]

Thank you, that actually has made me see things from a different pov.

I worry most about what would happen to dd if we moved house, and would feel guilty about splitting up the home.

I am trying to see practical ways out of this, but do worry about the big arguments that will happen, the lack of money, and how to tell family etc.

i just want to do this carefully, and get it right, not rush it.

[singforsupper]

I reckon the sooner you get yourself set up on your own, the better for you both. A year in a child's lifetime is a lot longer than a year in ours. Please don't feel guilty, it won't be easy for her whichever route you take, there is no such thing as guilt when you are just doing your best.

[Hardgoing]

I agree with Dittany, your relationship is so one-sided, I really think you need to just walk away. I don't agree that you would be better off cooking and cleaning and generally supporting a man who finds you repulsive (his words).

You do seem to care a lot about what other think: you are placating your parents by staying married (why? they will get over it even if they are a bit upset, let them into your life by being honest) and you are placating your husband by demanding nothing of him and doing everything his way (with you doing household tasks, childcare and working).

I think you are just very scared having not being on your own in the big wide world for a long time. I totally understand that, but I don't see that as a reason to sit where you are. I also don't actually see how anything is going to change as a result of this 'decision' as essentially it means carrying on (no sex, lots of housework) in exactly the same way.

I would think a) where would I want/need to live to be on my own as a single parent and b) how can I support myself to do that? Two more years of feeling this bad is really awful, personally I would think more like ripping off a plaster and just get on with it, as the fear of leaving seems to be driving everything.

I also notice you haven't told friends about this, I would get some RL support. You have nothing to be ashamed of, you did your best, but it hasn't worked. I think if you talk to a few people in your RL about the truth of what is happening, you will see that people will still be there for you (yes, sad and disappointed). I hate the idea that one of my friends or my child would carry on trying to lie about their life just to protect or please me. I think if you talk to a few people, you will feel stronger and have more ideas about where to go with this.

Finally, small flat without a man who simply doesn't love you=great, big house where you continue to be resentful=horrible way to live and things will have to change eventually. What if he got a new girlfriend during that time? It's simply too awful to contemplate.

[HerBeX]

How old is your DD btw? Sorry if you've already said and I've missed it.

I think you do also need to be aware of waht she's learning about relationships from you and yoru DH and as someone else said, a couple of years in the life of a child is an awful lot longer than it is in that of an adult.

[UndercoverFeminist]

dd is almost 8

I love the idea of having my own place & being independent. it's just that the money is so tied up atm, that it would be very hard to be separate. i'm not just talking small flat, but maybe having to choose between food or medical care level of hand-to-mouth.

so if i can just grit my teeth & hang in there til the work picks up, it would make a huge difference.

in the meantime, i have set up my own amazon account & will get those books delivered to work (i've read parts of the bancroft before, not just comments on here btw). i am putting as much money aside as poss. to build up the savings, and i am looking into housing, to see where i could end up - makes it much easier to change things if you know where you're headed.

i'm also being far more open about how i feel about dh with my friends - i'm kind of paving the way here iyswim.

we live in a small close-knit community, where everyone knows everyone. it won't take much of me saying things before loads of people, including the bloke mates he has, will hear rumours. if they get back to him, it's v likely he'll show his true colours. i'm not doing this to create a situation, but because i'm fed up of the duplicity.

even where i work is where dd goes to school - so if i tell people there that there are problems, then her teachers will know (which is good) and so will the other parents (not so good, but inevitable) however, it's the kind of place where they're likely to cook me dinners & help me move, rather than judge me.

yesterday, i spoke to one of the bosses at work, and she mentioned that there is def a chance of more work over the winter, and is herself looking to leave in the next couple of years. any extra job opportunities would go to people they know & are happy with, before even advertising the job, so it's not just pie-in-the-sky to think there will be more work soon. when i started they said there may be a permanent, part-time contract coming up. as soon as it did, they gave me the job. now they're saying the hours are likely to increase & encouraging me to apply for them as they do, so this is a realistic hope, that i will soon have enough income to support myself.

[Hardgoing]

You already sound a bit mentally freer, if you know what I mean. I think fear everyone else won't be able to cope with this news is a powerful thing and can stop you moving on. Actually, though people are sad for you and your mum and dad may say 'is there no hope then?', it is quite normal these days and so it becomes just one of those things and not this earth-shattering revelation. Telling RL friends and family things aren't great in your marriage is one way of making it real for you, and, as you say, preparing the way for separation etc.

I think it's awful that separation would mean that level of poverty for you. I do feel more than ever though, that what this is saying is that you are essentially staying there through economic dependence, not some nice co-parenting agreement. That is quite tragic in this day and age, to honestly not be able to live separately from a man though being utterly dependent on their wage (choosing this is obviously different). It sounds like something out of the Victorian era. Thank goodness it looks like you will be able to get more work and get out of there. If I remember rightly, you live abroad- so returning to the UK, even if you don't get full benefits immediately may be a choice, I'm sure you will be entitled to something after a time, and there may be work here too and family- I guess I'd start to think about where you want to be and what will work for you in the long-term.

[UndercoverFeminist]

yes, the lack of money is all to do with living overseas. i am getting myself established, but until a few months ago, i had no credit rating at all , not just a bad credit, but if someone ran a check on me, my name simply didn't come up, as if I didn't exist. So now I have a job & bank account, that is improving very quickly, but it will still cause problems for things like setting up accounts with gas, electric etc. Almost no chance of getting a mortgage - so waiting a little longer builds that up as well. Otherwise, I will have to rely on having cash to set up phone account etc.

Of course, H is being fine atm, happy & relaxed, chatting nicely, no criticism etc. I am going to push for a return to counselling asap, and write up some notes about how I feel about things, and what is important to me. Then I will have clear in my head what I want.

This thread has helped me with that a lot.

H could prevent me from returning to the UK - in fact, I would need his permission to remove dd, but I think that would be OK. I shall start drawing up lists - chances of a job, income, housing costs etc for here & the UK. I am starting to see this as an exit strategy, and giving up any hope of him admitting how much he expects me to do, with how little thanks.

What is so hard to accept, is that we can appear like such a happy family unit. I still keep thinking that we could be this perfect family, with all of us having fun, being fulfilled etc, if only we could tweak a few little details. But, to me, anyway, being 'the drudge' isn't a little detail, so I won't put up & shut up, but then H won't accept that, so we're not really happy at all. And he does make me feel like it's all my fault - I should respect/support his work more, and keep the house perfect etc etc.

I do know exactly what all this means. I'm so very confused about it all. If I could sort that out, I'd know for sure that this isn't really a marriage.

[Hardgoing]

The things that would have broken it for me wouldn't have been the drudgery, it would be the rejection (you said he says he doesn't love you IIRC and wants out of the marriage) and the lack of sex life. Even if you turned into the perfect wife (and what kind of burden is that to put on a person), I just couldn't live with the rejection. It eats away at who you are. So, to me, it wouldn't be about who does the household chores (as this is a subject of disagreement for many people) but is this a relationship with someone who loves me? Everything you are doing to re-establish yourself in terms of financial independence and work is great (I wouldn't worry about getting a morgage this second, I rent, it's no big deal). I feel like his version of you is what you believe and I think you are better than that in so many ways.

[HerBeX]

UF, it sounds like you're still at that stage where you think "if only he would be/ do/ acknowledge xyz, it would all be OK".

But there's the rub, you already know he never will be/ do/ acknowledge xzy, so you've got no basis to have any hope. No amount of counselling will give someone different attitudes and values to what they already have, if they are going into counselling with the aim of keeping the status quo with the elimination of the other person complaining about that status quo. Which is where he's coming from, by the sound of it.

I know someone who was stuck at that stage for about 10 years. My mother was stuck at it for the whole of her marriage. Being stuck there prevents you moving on, but hopefully reading the books and getting on with your plans, might help you get beyond it.

[UndercoverFeminist]

dittany - this is from the solicitor I spoke to, if a parent is resident in the country, the other one can't remove the child without permission.

anyway, i think, for now, i want to stay here - less disruption, and we've moved around in the uk, so there's no one place that i call 'home' that much, apart from near my parents, which is vv expensive & i don't want to live too close to them, anyway.

i have a job here & rapidly improving credit - neither of which i have in the UK.

herbex, you're exactly right abut how I feel/think about things atm. 'if only' we could fix things - but I don't think we can. this is what i want to address in therapy, I'm not sure I could deal with this face to face by ourselves.

i mentioned a mortgage, but would have the same trouble with rent. they would both require a 'hard' credit score (utilities, phone etc require a 'soft' one) which doesn't allow for previous rating in the UK to be used. this is a situation which is getting better month by month, and I am already becoming slightly trustworthy to lenders, but at a higher rate etc. a year ago i couldn't even have a bank account or credit card, gas bill or anything in my name, but by about Feb I expect to be able to have all these things as well.

seriously, being the 'trailing spouse' completely puts you at the mercy of the working partner. when i though we were both working together (he put in money, i provided childcare etc) then I was ok with that. now it seems he resents me for leeching off him!

We're going away for the weekend, so I won't be around until monday, although may be able to pop on here, not sure if I'm taking the laptop or not.

Please keep thoughts coming, it is really helping.

Still struggling with whether he's just lazy & using me, or outright abusive, and I think it depends how you interpret those words.

I feel used & under appreciated, I am wary & weary rather than fearful.

[ThePosieParker]

When a relationship has gone this far wrong, you are no longer part of a unit, the circle of trust is gone. Two people hurting this much usually look after themselves and that's what you should do.


Good luckxxx

[HerBeX]

LOL, is it very wrong of me to now have an image of the OP's DP as Robert de Niro in Meet the Fockers (circle of trust).

Sorry, I'll get me coat

[ThePosieParker]

With you HErBEx!!

[HerBeBolloX]

LOL, whcih thread?

[HerBeBolloX]

Was it in style and beauty?

[UndercoverFeminist]

ok, we are all from the UK, but he would have no intention of returning there, so I'd need him to grant permission for me to move back there with dd. he has said he would do that. I like where we live atm, and have good friends who i think would come through for me, and economically staying would make most sense, so that would be my plan for the next few years.

wish he looked like robert de niro!

dittany - i don't want to do stupid passive aggressive games like starting rumours & hoping that they circle back, but I am so fed up of the subterfuge, which prob shows how I'm fed up with the whole thing. I'm actually thinking about who I trust most & feel most comfortable telling, so easing my way into it. I think part of the problem is that once I've told people it becomes more real & there's no going back, so it feels like a very definitive step.

I've been thinking about the issue of 'abuse'. Does he take advantage, take the typical dominant male attitude & expect me to fall into line? Yes. does he rant & rave, yell, threaten etc, - once or twice he has 'lost it' and shouted vv badly, but that's it.

So, I think it's kind of passive abuse by default rather than a deliberate approach on his part.

Right, I am off to look at BeX's coat, prob under my 'real' identity.