Is this a compromise too far? I'd like a feminist viewpoint on this.

[UndercoverFeminist]

OK, I've set up a new account for this, so if you work out who I am, please don't give my regular name.

dh & I have been having major troubles - not many big arguments, but we are now pretty much at an impasse. we are still good friends & get a lot of emotional support from each other, but there is no 'wow' factor, or wish for one, or anything on either side.

we would also like more freedom/flexibility than a traditional marriage allows for.

however, if we split up & live separately, as well as all the emotional fall out (and bot our families will see this as a worse-than-death scenario, and never get over it), there are a huge number of practical difficulties.

basically, we would go from being financially comfortable, happily co-parenting, able to help out etc etc, to having barely enough money to support two houses, no family support & single parents, no companionship etc.

the house we live in is big enough that we have separate rooms, and dh works from home in an office, we kind of live amicable, but fairly separate lives, with dd happy.

HOWEVER - dh just assumes I will do most/all 'wifework'. It has been one of our big issues & one I don't see being resolved. IF we split up, he would have to pay spousal and child support. So if we acknowledge that we are 'over' but continue to co-exist in the same house, I would benefit from his higher salary, and having a back-up parent on hand, but be stuck with being a 'housewife', plus having work.

but then I would be in that position anyway if we split up, and with significantly less money & support.

we live thousands of miles from family, so we could be fairly open about our situation here, without the trauma of telling parents that we're getting divorced.

I have to log off for a while, but would love to know how you lot think this could work out. am i being a complete idiot to think about a 'house share' rather than separating completely?

[UndercoverFeminist]

You don't sound mad, I can see myself being one step away from there.

Realized today that I have been almost waiting for permission to move on, and that just the fact that he's taking me for granted and making me unhappy doesn't mean that I should stay and stick it out if I'm unhappy

I have started going through the finances

[barbiegrows]

UF - the conversation is identical to one of many I would have had years ago. For about 5 years I have just done everything myself, and if he wants to arrange something I tell him to look at the calendar, email him or write it down. Other than that I don't get involved. I used to get that all the time. Endless shite. He will be annoyed when you disengage from these kinds of conversations, but he'll get used to it, and if he doesn't then tough.

What I have since found out is that it affected my behaviour with other people - I would be vague about commitments because they just spelled massive conflict to me. I think I expected that every time I made a commitment someone would change it. Don't let it get that far. Now I sound like a lunatic.

[sunshineandbooks]

The fact that he just leaves things to drift for so long means that it will be up to me to initiate things, and he will then be able to tell people that he was willing to go to counselling and keep trying, but I gave up. I was really hoping to get him to admit how much he was causing this but I realize that's a hope too far

That struck a chord! My X constantly goes round telling everyone I broke up our family (while conveniently failing to point out that I left because he was abusive). I think it's important to men like him because if it's my fault the marriage breaks down it gives him carte blanche to behave badly following a split using the fact that I left as a metaphorical branch to beat me with every time I protested at his bad behaviour.

Despite all evidence to the contrary, many of us cling to this belief that life is fair and we have an inbuilt sense of natural justice. If you want to go all evolutionary theory about it you can see it as an adaptation that had strong benefits for social cohesion and therefore survival. However, it's a tool for control and this is one of those occasions when it's important to recognise this I think.

The chances are that your X will behave badly when you split. He may go round telling people all sorts of lies/half-truths about you and your relationship painting himself as the abandoned husband and you as the cold-hearted marriage-wrecker. Some people may believe him. Your sense of justice will be outraged and you will instinctively want to fight back and set the record straight. You can't. It will use up all your energy and divert you from the task of establishing a new life for yourself. If people think badly of you then you really are better off without them. Close friends and family will be able to see that he's talking bull. Keep a record of it all though in case things get really nasty and you need to provide evidence in court. Hopefully unnecessary but preparation is never a waste of time. Just knowing you have the ammunition to fight back if needed will provide you with the confidence to fight your corner so that you will hopefully never need that evidence.

The other important thing to realise, which I think you are already doing, is that if he was really capable of admitting how much his own behaviour was contributing to this problem then you wouldn't be having this problem in the first place...

You sound lovely. You clearly want to find a solution that is fair to everyone. Just make sure that your integrity isn't used against you. A fair man may have a wobble at the beginning and come round. My XH (not the abusive XP I mentioned earlier) was a bit of an idiot at first but he was basically a decent man and after a few initial hiccups our divorce was very amicable. My XP on the other hand was not a decent person and any attempt by myself to be fair was simply used against me. In the end I had no choice but to protect myself and my DC by playing hardball. The difference was amazing and I wish I'd done it a lot sooner.

Sorry for the very long post. I just hate to see fairness manipulated by people who don't care one jot about fairness. You don't need to be nice. You need to protect your interests and those of your DC.

[UndercoverFeminist]

Yes, you're all right.

He doesn't have to pass some test to prove he's abusive for the marriage to be over. Somehow it's ingrained in me that just being unhappy isn't a good enough reason to divorce.
If this were a friend of mine I would want give them a slap and tell them to wise the fuck up.

Somehow when it's your own life that you're dismantling , it is a lot harder to do,

The fact that he just leaves things to drift for so long means that it will be up to me to initiate things, and he will then be able to tell people that he was willing to go to counselling and keep trying, but I gave up. I was really hoping to get him to admit how much he was causing this but I realize that's a hope too far

[Hardgoing]

I agree with those who say that you don't need to look for 'evidence' of anything to see this is not a good situation for you. There are massive things about your relationship that don't work (he says he doesn't love you or want to be with you, there's no spark, no sex, to take some random examples). These are huge. Trying to analyse irritable conversations over arrangements is neither here nor there. If you don't want to give up on the relationship, that's up to you. I suspect that you don't have a choice as he has given up. So, I think planning your dignified exit is probably the best strategy, he's never going to say the right thing, just as you are never going to please him (another of his issues with you).

[DontCallMeFrothyDragon]

Constantly annoyed, yes. Leading someone to treat the other person as their secretary? Nope...

If you're constantly annoyed at someone in the twilight of a relationship, the best thing is to get away and take some breathing ground. Not to drive the other person into the ground...

[ThePosieParker]

I agree dittany, but sometimes in the 'twighlight' of a relationship people just become constantly annoyed.

[ThePosieParker]

Falling out of love can make you constantly annoyed, resentment and insecurity too.

A friend of mine's husband is the same when he's feeling guilty, it's his way of making her cross so they can argue and move on.

Depression can make you annoyed too.

[ThePosieParker]

B is passive aggressive and deliberately obtuse.

[UndercoverFeminist]

You're right, but I still am just so tiedup in knots over this, I keep thinking 'if he does x one more time' as if that would prove something.
The conversation earlier just felt like he wasn't sure what time to arrange the phone call for. As it was about work I had no idea so he got really cross with me. Now I'm wondering if it's because he was annoyed that I would be out when he hoped to make the call.

Just now I brought home dinner and we sat and chatted fine, no annoyance at all. So why is he so often annoyed?
Is he just insecure/impatient etc, just finds me annoying, or deliberately controlling.

And I know in a way that it doesn't matter - if 2 people can barely speak withoy getting annoyed then there isn't much point. I don't think I even want to understand what is going on in his mind, I just want to resolve the situation.

When we get on fine I feel so guilty for being so suspicious if him, then another time I'll be asking something perfectly ok, and he'll be horribly grumpy

I am definitely going to talk this through with some people in rl

This thread has been great, but I need to deal with this in a real rather than virtual world

[sunshineandbooks]

UF I'm sorry you're still feeling so troubled by all this.

I don't think there is much to be gained by looking at that conversation. It could mean anything depending on the context. A lot of behaviour can be completely innocuous on its own but as part of a pattern it can be downright abusive even if it is very subtle.

The one thing I think you can do if you are unsure is to go with what feels right. We set a lot of store about rational decision making and logic but it's not always appropriate. One thing I learned from my own abusive relationship, which is mirrored by the experiences of other abused women, is that letting your instincts be overruled by rationalisation is a bad move when it comes to abusive or controlling relationships.

If you feel that his behaviour is abusive, controlling or simply just disrespectful, then it probably is.

Abusers are just like other people. They can be very clever, very stupid or a mixture of both. Some have a lot of awareness, others none. Your H may or may not be aware of what he is doing, but it's irrelevant. Even if he would be genuinely horrified to learn how unhappy you feel, the fact is that you have talked to him about it and he hasn't changed. It's not your job to get him to understand or to change; it's his. You cannot guess how he will react to scenario a or scenario b; you will waste all your mental energy trying to predict his moods and work around them instead of concentrating on doing what's best for you and your DC.

I think the time has probably come to decide what you want and work from that. Your H has had it all his way for a long time and is therefore more than capable of looking out for his own interests. He has already proven that. You are not dealing with a vulnerable child but a fully grown man who has already demonstrated his ability to protect himself and get what he wants. You need to concentrate only on doing the same for yourself. There's no need to take him to the cleaners in a desire for revenge, but make sure you go for what is fair to you and your DD. If he feels it's unfair it's up to him to fight for it.

Good luck.

[UndercoverFeminist]

So, I am still struggling to get my head round what the difference is between someone who's just unhappy and grumpy, and someone who is actually abusive.
I know this is typical, but at what point do you draw the line?

Here's a conversation from earlier, and I shall just use A and B so that hopefully it will just be the words that get looked at

A: X emailed me back and wants to set up a time for a business call.
B: that's good.
A: so?
B: so er what?
A: (slightly annoyed) when should I arrange it for?
B: whenever you're free.
A: yes but when is that?
B: well, whenever you're free, not working or have a meeting
A: (more annoyed) that's obvious, what else is going on
B: at the weekend ...
A: not then, in the next few days
B: well you know that I'm out tonight and tomorrow.
A: yes, thank you, why didn't you just say that? I'll set up the call for one day or Thurs eve
B: even if I'm out you can take a phone call. The worst that will happen will be dd interrupting you and that's normal family ...
A: well, of course, but it breaks my flow, I won't be able to concentrate
B: ok so avoid that time, just say when you're free during the day.
A: I will
B: good
A: humph

Please tell me what you think of this conversation, I just want to know if I'm mad or interpreting it correctly

[UndercoverFeminist]

Thanks- I am doing a lot of lurking under my usual name. This name is being kept both discreet & discrete!

[snowmama]

Good luck, the thread I talked about, incidentally was not to tell you anything you didn't know, there are some wonderful women on it can give some very useful advice and support.

[UndercoverFeminist]

Yes, I am aware of that and have been doing some reading over the last 6 months.
What I have always thought though is that a lot of behavior could be seen as abusive or normal. Eg if accuses of being controlling then I expect most people would get angry, we all have different moods, there have been times myself when I've tried to exert pressure to get what I want. I think a lot of these situations come and go. Of course, having said he is n't sure about marriage any more, gives him the upper hand, I am awRe of that.

Anyway, I have decided to push for more counseling and will tell him that it's time to shit or get off the pot. I think it's best to have that discussion with someone else there. I am also going to get finances resolved and get a solicitor to give me a suggested agreement. I am sure it will be 'negotiated' but it gives me a little more certainty.